• Facebook
  • Twitter
  • Subscribe
  • RSS

Another Day, Another Trump Attack On Racial Minorities

Trump Navajo Codetalkers

President Trump decided to use the occasion of a White House ceremony honoring Native Americans who served their country notwithstanding the facts of history and the fact that they were at the time being treated unequally back at home to hurl insults:

WASHINGTON — President Trump on Monday transformed a White House ceremony to honor Navajo veterans of World War II into a racially charged controversy, using the event as a platform to deride Senator Elizabeth Warren as “Pocahontas.”

Standing in the Oval Office alongside three Navajo code talkers, whom he called “very, very special people,” Mr. Trump dispensed with his prepared remarks and took aim at Ms. Warren without naming her, resurrecting a favorite nickname as the veterans stood stonefaced.

“You were here long before any of us were here,” Mr. Trump said to the veterans, ages 90 and older, who wore their military uniforms for the occasion, juxtaposed with turquoise and silver, hallmarks of Navajo culture. “Although we have a representative in Congress who, they say, was here a long time ago. They call her Pocahontas.”

He made the remarks while standing in front of a portrait of President Andrew Jackson — a favorite of Mr. Trump’s — who served as the nation’s seventh president and signed the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which resulted in the mass displacement and deaths of Native Americans often referred to as the Trail of Tears.

The comment made for an awkward moment during an otherwise uplifting event, organized to pay tribute to the contributions of the young Native Americans recruited by the United States military to create top-secret coded messages used to communicate during battles. And it was the latest instance of a president who relishes any opportunity to land a hit against a political opponent, veering sharply off-script with divisive speech and quickly setting off a furor.

Mr. Trump was referring, as he often has, to Ms. Warren, Democrat of Massachusetts, a former Harvard Law School professor who came under fire in 2012 after it emerged that, during her academic career, she identified herself as a minority, citing Native American roots.

The comment drew swift rebukes from Native American leaders, including one who was present for the ceremony. Russell Begaye, the president of the Navajo Nation, called the president’s mention of Pocahontas “derogatory” and “disrespectful to Indian nations.”

“This is something that unfortunately came up during the campaign and it seems to have stuck in the mind of the president, something that he continues to use, to take a jab at the senator,” Mr. Begaye said in an interview. “The campaign is over. The nation needs to move forward, and using Native Americans in this way, in this type of honoring setting is something that should not be happening.”

Ms. Warren said the episode reflected the president’s penchant for racial slurs.

“This was a ceremony to honor war heroes: Native Americans who had put it all on the line to protect our country and to save lives of Americans and our allies,” Ms. Warren said in an interview. “It should have been a celebration of their incredible service, but Donald Trump couldn’t make it through without tossing in a racial slur.”

The White House rejected that characterization — “a ridiculous response,” said Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the White House press secretary — and defended the remark.

“What most people find offensive is Senator Warren lying about her heritage to advance her career,” Ms. Sanders told reporters shortly after the ceremony.

The Republican Party also rushed to the president’s defense, calling Mr. Trump’s comment a “joke,” and circulating talking points to reporters that said that Ms. Warren “lied about her ancestry for years,” and has never provided proof that she is of Native American descent.

Ms. Warren called the White House’s response “alternative facts.”

“He knows it’s not true, but he doesn’t care,” she said. “He says this because he thinks he can shut me up. It hasn’t worked before, and it won’t work now.”

(…)

[F]or Native American leaders who had worked behind the scenes with the White House to organize the ceremony, Mr. Trump’s off-topic remark reopened painful wounds.

“For Indian Country, which has a very high level of participation in the military and veterans’ service, it was a real honor to be at that event today,” said Jacqueline Pata, the executive director of the National Congress of American Indians, “and it is unfortunate that it was used as an opportunity to once again try to use the word Pocahontas in a negative way towards a political adversary.”

The group issued a statement in May after Mr. Trump referred to Ms. Warren as Pocahontas at a National Rifle Association gathering, calling it a “pejorative term” that insulted native people and degraded their cultures. Members of the National Congress of American Indians said at the time that with the election over, they hoped that the remark was a “momentary slip-up” that would not be repeated by the president.

During the campaign, Mr. Trump’s use of Pocahontas also drew objections from a number of Native Americans, many of whom regarded the reference as offensive and divisive.

Here’s the video:

Not surprisingly, the families of the men being honored at this event were not pleased:

Families of Navajo war veterans who were honored Monday at the White House say they were dumbfounded that President Donald Trump used the event to take a political jab at a Massachusetts senator, demeaning their work with an unbreakable code that helped the U.S. win World War II.

Trump turned to a nickname he often deployed for Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren during the 2016 presidential campaign: Pocahontas. He then told the three Navajo Code Talkers on stage that he had affection for them that he doesn’t have for Warren.

“It was uncalled for,” said Marty Thompson, whose great uncle was a Navajo Code Talker. “He can say what he wants when he’s out doing his presidential business among his people, but when it comes to honoring veterans or any kind of people, he needs to grow up and quit saying things like that.”

(…)

The Navajo Nation suggested Trump’s remark Monday was an example of “cultural insensitivity” and resolved to stay out of the “ongoing feud between the senator and President Trump.”

“All tribal nations still battle insensitive references to our people. The prejudice that Native American people face is an unfortunate historical legacy,” Navajo Nation President Russell Begaye said in a statement.

(…)

Michael Smith, a Marine whose father was a Code Talker, said most of the Code Talkers would be skeptical about going to the White House because it could be construed to mean they support a political cause.

“So, why did they go? Why were they there? He’s putting them in the Oval Office to say ‘You did a good job, and say hi to Pocahontas?'” Smith said. “They should be taken care of as heroes, not as pawns.”

Michael Nez, whose father helped develop the code based on the Navajo language, said his father would have been upset to hear Trump’s Pocahontas comment. But, as other Code Talker relatives said, his father was taught to respect the president as the commander in chief.

“It’s too bad he does put his foot in his mouth,” Nez said. “Why he does it? I don’t know.”

Helena Begaii said her 94-year-old Navajo Code Talker father, Samuel T. Holiday, declined an invitation to the White House on Monday. She said he would have a better feel for what happened once he reads the newspaper.

“I feel really sad that they didn’t get treated with respect,” she said.

All of this occurred during what was supposed to be a ceremony honoring a group of men who played a unique role in American history, the Navajo Codetalkers. During World War II, the United States military recruited Native Americans to communicate with each other in a way that the enemy could not understand. They did this by talking in their native language, which neither the Japanese nor the Germans knew how to translate, via radio rather than relying on complex codes that could be uncovered by enemy eavesdropping. In the units in which they served, these men were considered among the most important members of the unit, with each of them being assigned at least one member of the unit whose job it was to safeguard their lives and prevent them from being captured so that the enemy could break the code. This included both risking their own life to protect the codetalker and, if necessary, killing the codetalker rather than allowing them to be captured. It was an exceedingly dangerous job for both the codetalker and the person guarding them. The fact that these men put their lives on the line for their country was made more profound by the fact that, at the time, Native Americans were still treated very unequally and had only been recognized as American citizens a few decades before the start of the war. These codetalkers came from a number of Native Americans in the Southwest such as the Navajo, Comanche, and Lakota tribes. In addition, some codetalkers came from Americans of Basque ancestry since that language is unique to Europe and was not well-known in Asia at the time. The story of some of these men was told in the 2002 film Windtalkers starring Nicolas Cage.

As noted, Trump has used the “Pocahontas” line against Warren in the past, dating all the way back to the beginning of the campaign when Warren became one of the most outspoken voices against him in either the Republican or Democratic parties. It’s a label rooted in the 2012 campaign for Senate in Massachusetts when it was reported that Warren had claimed Native American ancestry when first applied for a position at Harvard Law School and, for at least some period of time, she was among the people listed as minority members of the faculty. During the campaign, several conservative media outlets attempted to go after Warren by undermining her claim of Native American heritage and by alleging that she was hired by Harvard due to the fact that she was part Native American. As several media organizations, including AxiosCNN, Snopes and The Washington Post have reported in the past, while there are doubts about the veracity of Warren’s past claims of Native American heritage there is no evidence to support the contention that this claim was at all relevant to the reasons she was hired to teach at Harvard. Additionally, it’s worth noting that Warren’s claim appears to have come from what she was told by her family growing up and that she didn’t have any reason to doubt it when she first made the claim. In any case, all of this led conservatives to give Warren the nickname “Fauxcaohontas,” which Trump for some reason keeps repeating as “Pocahontas” who, of course, was an actual Native American who lived during the time that the British colonized what is now the historic site of Jamestown, Virginia. This is obvious where Trump” gets the “Pocahontas” label from, but it’s not clear why he continually uses that name rather than the one that conservatives made up back in 2012. In any case, the controversy is one that remains largely only in Trump’s mind given the fact that Warren was overwhelmingly elected over incumbent Senator Scott Brown in 2012. Leaving aside the context though, the fact that Trump chose to use a ceremony honoring Native American war heroes is, to say the least, odd.

In addition to the Warren comment, of course, it’s also worth taking note of the setting of the event yesterday. For some reason, the White House chose to place the podium right in front of the portrait of President Andrew Jackson, who had a history with regard to Native Americans that is, to say the least, controversial. During his time as a General, for example, Jackson served in the newly acquired territory of Florida where he presided over a war against the Seminole tribe that many historians now consider to have been genocidal. As President of the United States, he signed the Indian Removal Act into law. This law led to the forced removal of several Native Amerian tribes from the eastern United States to land west of the Mississippi River on what is now known as the Trail of Tears due to the fact that tens of thousands of members of the Cherokee, Creek Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw tribes died during the long journey from the East Coast to what is now Oklahoma. While President Trump has named Jackson as one of the former Presidents he admires the most, that is obviously not how he is remembered by Native Americans and it seems highly insulting to hold an event honoring Native American heroes in front of a portrait of a man who oversaw the deaths of tens of thousands of Native Americans.

The fact that Trump chose to insult yet another minority group is hardly surprising, of course. This is the same man who started out his campaign by attacking Mexican immigrants, attacked a sitting Federal Judge for his Mexican heritage, and proposed banning Muslims from entering the United States. If this were any other President, all of this would be shocking behavior. With Donald Trump, it’s just business as usual.

 

 

Related Posts:

About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. CSK says:

    I suffer badly from vicarious embarrassment. When this story broke, I wanted to kill myself to end the pain.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  2. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    Ya gotta admit, he’s one of a kind… hopefully…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  3. teve tory says:

    38% of americans currently approve of Trump.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  4. CSK says:

    @teve tory:

    I prefer to think of it as “62% can’t stand the s.o.b.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  5. Paul L. says:

    Doug is not pretending any more. He has gone Progressive Democrat by defending Melissa Click soundalike Elizabeth Warren.

    Disney is racist and the Disney Movie/Disney Princess Pocahontas should be banned.
    There is no context that justifies using a racial slur. Except if it is directed at White people. Your Rules.

    given the fact that Warren was overwhelmingly elected over incumbent Senator Scott Brown in 2012.

    Let us see if the same standard applies to Roy Moore.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 47

  6. alanstorm says:

    No, dear children, it’s not an attack on racial minorities. I realize you WANT it to be, in order to supprt your TDS, but it’s actually a mocking of Liz Warren, who has earned it.

    Once again, racism, sexism, and all the other isms are not synonyms for “stuff I don’t like.”

    You’re welcome.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 46

  7. Nikki says:

    Trump said what he did in front of these people who don’t have the bully pulpit Senator Warren has to fight back, he said it while standing in front of that portrait of Jackson, and he said it with Warren nowhere in the vicinity, proving he is not only racist, but a cowardly racist at that.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 3

  8. Pete S says:

    @Paul L.: How, in particular, is Disney being racist by using the name of a true historical person as the title of a movie about that person?

    Followup question: how stupid would a Trump follower have to be to believe that this use of the title excuses their idol’s use of the same name to refer to somebody else as an insult?

    Final question: is Ray Moore planning to move? Just wondering how you would be expecting him to overwhelmingly defeat an incumbent Senator in a couple of weeks.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 0

  9. CSK says:

    @alanstorm:

    Do you really, seriously believe that a Pocahontas joke is appropriate at a ceremony such as this one? Do you?

    Trump isn’t defying political correctness. He’s demonstrating–as he does on a daily basis–what a consummate boob, boor, and oaf he is.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 1

  10. grumpy realist says:

    And then the Republican Party doesn’t understand why non-white people don’t vote for them…..

    (Aside from the insulting fact that Trump obviously doesn’t understand the difference between Amerindian tribes or doesn’t care. Navaho != (whatever tribe Pocahontas was a member of). Sort of like making derogatory comments about the Chinese while in Japan.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

  11. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    Look…The so-called President is an old fat white racist and misogynist. He is an admitted serial sexual assaulter.
    We need to get past that because there is nothing we can do about it, now.
    But here’s the thing.
    While we are talking about this we are ignoring the fact that he is dismantling the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB); we are ignoring that he is making it, once again, easier for financial institutions to screw the little guy. This administration is making predatory financial practices easier to get away with. The swamp is not being drained…it’s being re-filled.
    And we are talking about another racist slur from a fat old white guy with a pathetic comb-over.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

  12. MBunge says:

    @CSK: Do you really, seriously believe that a Pocahontas joke is appropriate at a ceremony such as this one? Do you?

    Referring to Elizabeth Warren as “Pocahontas” is childish and asinine, particularly in these circumstances. alanstorm is, however, entirely correct that is is NOT an “attack on racial minorities” and trying to pretend otherwise simply proves his point.

    Mike

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 26

  13. Gustopher says:

    It’s not the random racist flair that is so disappointing, but how incompetent Trump is at it.

    Being a boorish ass is Trump’s strong suit, and he takes pride in it — he claims he is a “counter-puncher” — but he just whiffs it more often than not. Is there anything this man does well? Anything? Good or bad, just anything?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  14. CSK says:

    @Gustopher:

    Well, he’s outstanding at disgracing the office in which he squats and holding this country up to global ridicule.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  15. Paul L. says:

    @Pete S:
    1 ) According to progressives,Pocahontas is now a Racist slur. Like Redskins.
    2) Calling her Pocahontas (which should be Fauxcahontas) is bringing up that she lied about her heritage.
    3) Let us not pretend that the defeat of incumbent Senator Scott Brown was a aberration.
    It was not like the defeat of incumbent Senator Ted Stevens with the help of the DOJ.

    But you guys keep pretending that a proper name (Pocahontas) is the same as calling someone the N-word.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 21

  16. JKB says:

    the controversy is one that remains largely only in Trump’s mind given the fact that Warren was overwhelmingly elected over incumbent Senator Scott Brown in 2012.

    That would be true only if Warren wasn’t floating the idea of a presidential run. The matter is only settled for Massachusetts voters, who did elect a man who left a woman to die while he consulted with political handlers for decades to the same office.

    For some reason, the White House chose to place the podium right in front of the portrait of President Andrew Jackson, who had a history with regard to Native Americans that is, to say the least, controversial.

    Really, you want to open up a discussion of, yes a president who oversaw terrible things done to Native Americans, a president whose presidency defined the Democratic party, of which he was a founder, until at least 2009?

    And it would have been a slur to call a Native American “Pocahontas”, but not someone who faked Native American ancestry to take affirmative action positions in academia away from legitimate Native American scholars.

    Now this is funny, especially since it originate at CNN last June, Sen. Shaheen is actually related to Pocahontas. Everyone just assumed Trump was calling out Warren when he may have just been speaking inarticulately about something from a few months ago.

    Based on the family tree data found at ancestry.com, Pocahontas was Sen. Shaheen’s 10th great-grandmother, which makes Shaheen a 12th generation descendant of the iconic Native American heroine. (Note: Back in 2002, Slate reported that Bill Shaheen, Sen. Shaheen’s husband, said of his wife, “Her 11th great-grandmother was Pocahontas.”)

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 24

  17. barbintheboonies says:

    Trump is who he is, and he does offend some, but I have heard many blacks and Hispanics say a lot worse. Nobody jumps on their trash. I am not just talking about regular people. I`m talking celebs, and government officials. Play fair. The white guy has been belittled harassed and hung out to dry. I for one am sick of it.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 24

  18. barbintheboonies says:

    @Paul L.: CV It`s okey dokey to call white people cracker or honkey should these be called c word or h word? PC BS for snowflakes.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 22

  19. Hal_10000 says:

    *bangs head on desk*

    Honoring Navajo code talkers is the part of the job that’s EASY. You show up, you talk about what they did, you praise their culture. Done. But he just can’t resist getting a dig in. And, no doubt, the Trumpers think it’s hilarious. After all, he totally burned Liz Warren!

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2

  20. barbintheboonies says:

    @grumpy realist: Many blacks and Hispanics and others are leaving the Democrat party because they are seeing what the Dems are becoming. They want what most people do. A strong country UNITED. They want chances to get ahead not be a slave to the Dem party on the welfare line. They don`t want to have to like everything the Dems hold onto just to get voters. We all need to push to center and grow.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 25

  21. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @alanstorm:

    Once again, racism, sexism, and all the other isms are not synonyms for “stuff I don’t like.”

    You are projecting, again. Typical behavior for you Trumpies…who see yourselves as victims. Poor white male Trumpies…having your white privilege (for which you’ve done nothing, and with which you’ve done nothing) threatened…
    But don’t listen to me…listen to a victim of that racism;

    I feel that the way it was used, yes, it was [a racial slur]…Pocahontas is a real person…It’s not a caricature. It’s not something that’s just made up. This is a person, a young lady and Native American woman, that played a critical role in the life of this nation. And to use that person in that way is unnecessary and is culturally insensitive.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  22. Paul L. says:

    @barbintheboonies:
    “PC BS for snowflakes.”
    But the words Illegal Aliens and Illegal Immigrant is the same as calling someone the N-word.
    “It just is”
    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/294109-gary-johnson-has-serious-problems-with-term-illegal

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 15

  23. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Paul L.:

    2) Calling her Pocahontas (which should be Fauxcahontas) is bringing up that she lied about her heritage.

    You should either provide a link to back up your claim…or STFU because, as per usual, you have nothing factual, or of substance, to add.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  24. JohnMcC says:

    Ira Hayes.

    A real person of the Pima nation. Medal of Honor. Died in a jail drowning in his own puke.

    If the biography is too time-consuming, Johnny Cash has a great synopsis.

    @alanstorm: @MBunge: I’m sure the Navaho nation is relieved by you boys assuring them that – you know – Indian people are kind of funny – PRESENT COMPANY EXCEPTED. Your deep consideration is – well – bullshit.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  25. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Paul L.:

    Let us see if the same standard applies to Roy Moore.

    There goes Paul…supporting child molestation, again.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  26. MarkedMan says:

    Trump is a racist. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact. When he took over his father’s apartment buildings, he literally directed his employees to mark dark-skinned applicants paperwork with a “C” for “Colored” so they could be discarded. He doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt here. So of course Trump holds racist attitudes about American Indians. He holds racist and bigoted attitudes about everyone. Further, he is an infantile moron with no self control, so it’s no surprise he made offensive comments while supposedly paying respect to war heroes. Just as it was no surprise that he stood in front of a memorial to agents who died for their country and used it to tell ridiculous lies about his inaugural crowd size.

    I’m more curious about the Jackson portrait. Is this a normal location for such things, and presenting in front of Jackson, literally called “Indian Killer” in his lifetime, just incompetence? Because if this portrait doesn’t show up in a lot of other pictures, it would make you wonder if it was the work of one of the white supremacists on his staff….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 4

  27. grumpy realist says:

    @barbintheboonies: If you want a country UNITED (as you claim you do), why don’t you go after the fat weasel in the White House who can’t keep his gob shut and insists on insulting all the minorities that he runs across?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2

  28. Paul L. says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl:
    All I need these days is a allegation. And her entry in Pow Wow Chow.
    https://elizabethwarrenwiki.org/pow-wow-chow-cookbook/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

  29. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Paul L.:
    If you think that’s proof of anything then you are a bigger moron than I had imagined.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

  30. SenyorDave says:

    People are defending Trump on this? You speak at a ceremony honoring genuine heroes and you can’t go an hour without insulting your political enemies! And you use a term the people you are supposedly honoring find offensive. Trump is the POTUS, not some guy in a bar. I have a seven year old granddaughter who acts more mature than he does.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1

  31. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @MBunge:

    that is is NOT an “attack on racial minorities”

    Another white guy speaks.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 5

  32. barbintheboonies says:

    @grumpy realist: Because it is working. People have started talking again. He has given people permission to speak their minds too. We had just cowered to the loud mouths and let them take over. We need to take our voices back. I like a lot of Dem`s ideas and there are some I just hate. The same with the Repubs. It`s been destroying our country. We should not pretend to like something just because our party of choice says it. The political correctness in this country has gone way too far, and the media enjoys stirring the shi$ pot.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 19

  33. barbintheboonies says:

    @SenyorDave: Not everyone was insulted Did you ever consider that we are being conditioned to feel insulted over anything. I am part Native American too and I just thought it funny. Look at the leaders in the middle East now they are offensive. Look at Kim Jung Un now he`s offensive.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 18

  34. grumpy realist says:

    @barbintheboonies: Yeah, now we’re starting to learn exactly how many people want to blame all their problems on “those darkies” or “them spics” rather than take responsibility for their own actions.

    Sort of like what’s been happening in England with Brexit. Whoohoo! All the problems are due to the EU! Nothing is ever due to our own politicians!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  35. SenyorDave says:

    @barbintheboonies: He has given people permission to speak their minds too.

    I hope you aren’t actually serious. You are confusing political correctness and civility. Trump, in addition to being a bigot, lacks any sense of civility. You find his “openness” to be a positive? If that is true, you truly are delusional (and yes, I am being uncivil).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

  36. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Paul L.:
    @MBunge:
    While you tools are busy defending the indefensible…your Dear Leader is fvcking you on your taxes, fvcking you on your insurance premiums, fvcking you on SS and Medicare, and making it easier for credit card companies to fvck you.
    At least Sarah Sanders and the Trump kids are being paid to be idiots…it’s costing you fools money to be idiots!!!
    You morons crack me up.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

  37. barbintheboonies says:

    @Paul L.: I know. It just makes me sick we are just supposed to shut up work and open up our wallets to anyone who wants it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 10

  38. al-Ameda says:

    @JKB:
    @alanstorm:
    @Paul L.:
    @MBunge:
    Esteemed colleagues, all,

    Fellas, do you really think it was appropriate for the President of the United States to indulge his ‘Pocahontas’ fetish at an occasion intended to honor Native American war heroes?

    Don’t get me wrong, I understand that his supporters like that about him – the fact that he speaks his mind, that he’s not PC – I get it. But really, is every occasion about him? I suppose we should be happy that he didn’t toss rolls of paper towels at the honorees?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

  39. teve tory says:

    Is there anything this man does well? Anything? Good or bad, just anything?

    Trump has one core competency: he cons dumb deplorable racists into supporting him.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  40. TM01 says:

    Liz Warren is a minority?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  41. TM01 says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl:
    Another white guy speaks.

    1. Did you just assume his race and ethnicity?
    2. If white, so what?
    3. Do you assume that all Native Americans see Trump’s comments as racist? Why do you think all members of a particular ethnicity think the same? Racist Privilege there, much?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 11

  42. CET says:

    @Hal_10000:

    You nailed it. Frankly, if he was a genuinely competent president, and the main problem was just that he said stupid things in public sometimes…meh.

    Given that he’s the most inept president in the last 100 years (though I think Wilson gets an honorable mention here), and that he’s running this whole bizarre con game where he gets stupid white people to like him by being petty and racist at every opportunity…I don’t even know anymore. Can we get a mulligan on that election?

    If conservatives (of either the classical liberal or Chestertonian variety) ever retake the GOP, call me. In the meantime, it’s bad enough that I’m probably going to start voting more-or-less straight Democrat tickets. Even if progressives are soft-headed and fundamentally mistaken about how the world works, at least most of them are marginally competent.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  43. Slugger says:

    Folks,
    Let’s not argue. Let’s find common ground.
    This is who Trump is. Not an accident, not a misspeak. What he said is what he wanted to say.
    No one can disagree.
    Mr. Trump does not surprise me; he has been a public persona for 30+ years and has not changed. He is not going to change. WYSIWYG.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  44. gVOR08 says:

    @CET:

    Even if progressives are soft-headed and fundamentally mistaken about how the world works, at least most of them are marginally competent.

    And not deliberately evil.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  45. CET says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    “Because it is working. People have started talking again. He has given people permission to speak their minds too.”

    You’re not the first person I’ve heard say sometime more or less like this. I get the chain of reasoning involved – if the president can go out of his way to be an asshat to people, then surely no one can get mad at me for saying ‘black’ rather than ‘African-American’ (or is it the other way around? I have trouble remembering whether we’ve been through an even or odd number of reversals on which one of those two is acceptable).

    But is it worth the price? Trump is just pissing these people off because it makes him (and apparently some of you) feel good. A real solution to identity politics would require embracing rigorous protections for free speech, race-blind policies, a totally different set of economic priorities, and a ‘melting pot’ ethos. Trolling them for 4-8 years while getting cuddly with Neo-Nazis, dismantling healthcare, and finding new ways to tax poor people is just pushing us closer to a Spanish style civil war.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  46. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @TM01:
    1. Did you just assume his race and ethnicity?
    The same way I know you are…y’all just ooze white victim-hood. Or maybe that’s just your lust for your Dear Leader.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  47. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    He has given people permission to speak their minds too.

    You mean the white supremacists??? Yay for racism!!!
    The only other things he has given permission for is sexual assault, and misogyny. Oh yeah, and to applaud Russia for attacking us.
    Almost everything else he says is a bald-faced lie.
    Anyone that offers one word of support for this fraud should be ashamed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  48. MarkedMan says:

    @CET:

    I have trouble remembering whether we’ve been through an even or odd number of reversals on which one of those two is acceptable

    I suspect you will appreciate this classic Bloom County strip. Hard to believe it is nearly 30 years old…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  49. Kylopod says:

    @JKB:

    And it would have been a slur to call a Native American “Pocahontas”, but not someone who faked Native American ancestry to take affirmative action positions in academia away from legitimate Native American scholars.

    Once again, just to remind everyone, the above is baseless slander against Warren.

    The head of the committee that brought Warren to Harvard Law School said talk of Native American ties was not a factor in recruiting her to the prestigious institution. Reported the Boston Heraldin April in its first story on Warren’s ancestry claim: “Harvard Law professor Charles Fried, a former U.S. Solicitor General who served under Ronald Reagan, sat on the appointing committee that recommended Warren for hire in 1995. He said he didn’t recall her Native American heritage ever coming up during the hiring process.
    “‘It simply played no role in the appointments process. It was not mentioned and I didn’t mention it to the faculty,’ he said.”

    He repeated himself this week, telling the Herald: “In spite of conclusive evidence to the contrary, the story continues to circulate that Elizabeth Warren enjoyed some kind of affirmative action leg-up in her hiring as a full professor by the Harvard Law School. The innuendo is false.”

    “I can state categorically that the subject of her Native American ancestry never once was mentioned,” he added.

    That view was echoed by Law School Professor Laurence H. Tribe, who voted to tenure Warren and was also involved in recruiting her.

    “Elizabeth Warren’s heritage had absolutely no role in the decision to recruit her to Harvard Law School,” he told the Crimson. “Our decision was entirely based on her extraordinary expertise and legendary teaching ability. This whole dispute is fabricated out of whole cloth and has no connection to reality.”

    It’s true that Warren has so far been unable to corroborate her claim to have Native American ancestry, and the evidence that has been brought forth has been dubious (see the article for details). But there’s no evidence that she made the story up; like many other Americans, she carries family lore of a Native American background. It’s extremely common, and it’s unfair to accuse Warren or anyone else who has such stories of fraud.

    But a lack of Native ancestry despite the family stories she’s heard all her life would also be consistent with one of the most common genealogical myths in the United States.

    “Many more Americans believe they have Native ancestry than actually do (we always suspected this, but can now confirm it through genetic testing),” said Smolenyak in an email. “In fact, in terms of wide-spread ancestral myths, this is one of the top two (the other being those who think their names were changed at Ellis Island). And someone who hails from Oklahoma would be even more prone to accept a tale of Native heritage than most.”

    She added: “There’s also a tendency to accept what our relatives (especially our elders) tell us.”

    As for Warren, “I can’t confirm or refute Cherokee heritage without extensive research,” she said. “All I can say is that Ms. Warren’s scenario is a wildly common one — minus the public scrutiny, of course.”

    Warren is not the equivalent of Rachel Dolezal, a woman who really did lie about her past, who her parents were, and even changed her own appearance to further a false story about her racial background. There simply is no evidence that Warren did any of those things. What she did do was accept some questionable (though not wholly disproven) claims about her family history that were passed down to her, something that millions of Americans do all the time.

    It bothers me that most news reports are focusing entirely on Trump’s use of the term “Pocohantos,” and not debunking the smear he’s been perpetuating against Warren.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2

  50. Bob@Youngstown says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    I for one am sick of it.

    then STFU

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 3

  51. barbintheboonies says:

    @SenyorDave: So why is it okay for minorities to say whatever the F they want about white people without being called bigots. Why isn`t anyone jumping on this black nurse who says white boy babies should be killed , because they will only grow up to be rapist. If any white person said this it would play out on tv over and over and there would be rioting in the streets. I am sick of the hypocrisy.
    ..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 11

  52. barbintheboonies says:

    @Bob@Youngstown: YOU TOO.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  53. al-Ameda says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    He has given people permission to speak their minds too. We had just cowered to the loud mouths and let them take over. We need to take our voices back.

    barb, Americans have never been deprived of their “permission” to say what ever comes to their mind, it’s just that now, the loud mouths feel that, for the time being, there are no consequences to saying ignorant, fraululent and uninformed bullsh*t. Think about that for a moment: no consequences, no responsibility, very cool.

    Enjoy these happy days and good times, because I’m very positive and sure that all these people who have been “given permission” to say anything will emerge from these Trump years as angry, resentful, bitter and victimized as ever.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  54. barbintheboonies says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: I choose to defend anyone, including my race when it is right. I will call them out when I feel they are wrong. I was not a Trump supporter, but I am now because he has been outspoken, even if it has been a bit over the top. It is so much better than the loud mouths who scream that we need to let everyone in our country, and suck up to them. Hurry, hurry get to the nearest welfare office, get your freebees. Come on now have a few more kids the government will pay for those too. Let`s vote for raising your taxes to pay for the poor little kiddies. Let`s open up our wallets to pay for rich senators to pay for their sexual harassment cases. Hey everyone the schools need more money for over crowding we need more money, it`s for the poor kiddies. So Daryl you love them so much you pay for them. I`m dome paying for irresponsible people.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 12

  55. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    Why isn`t anyone jumping on this black nurse who says white boy babies should be killed , because they will only grow up to be rapist.

    First off…I’ve never heard that. Sounds like an Alex Jones myth to me. Or maybe Sean Hannity. If it was said, I’m sure its been strongly condemned, and rightly so.
    Second…a nurse that no one ever heard about is a far cry from your Dear Leader disparaging war heroes (or people representing them) to their faces in the National Media.
    Although I’m sure it’s fake news and he never actually said it…you know…like the grabbing pussies thing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  56. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    than the loud mouths who scream that we need to let everyone in our country

    Please link to whoever said we need to allow everyone into the country?
    If your opinion is based on BS then your opinion is BS.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  57. KM says:

    JFC he’s a conceited asshat. WHY exactly was it necessary to even bring it up? I don’t care what your stance on Warren is – hell I don’t even care if it was true for the sake of this argument – what on god’s green earth does Warren have to do with the veterans that were being honored?

    Trump *repeatedly* disrespects the troops and veterans of this great nation. He insults Gold Star Families. He can’t be bothered to greet our dead at the airport because the golf course beckons. He brags about how he’s “gonna let them win” like their ability to victorious has anything to do with him. Now he’s making a ceremony about the Greatest Generation into a self-love-fest and chance to burn an opponent.

    Conservatives have a lot of nerve whining about kneeling football players disrespecting the troops when the CiC takes completely unnecessary racial potshots at a Dem at a ceremony honoring veterans famous for what their race had to offer the war effort. The worst part is they know it’s bad taste but lolz boy did he get her so the troops had to take it on the chin for his funny to work. They’re totally ok with these brave men’s time in the spotlight being stolen for a lameass “joke”. Support the troops, my ass!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  58. barbintheboonies says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: I do not have a link, but I have read it here. Remember this one: We are all immigrants and anyone should be able to come here. Illegal are coming here ONLY to make a better life for themselves. Do not tell me you never read that.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

  59. SC_Birdflyte says:

    @Paul L.: Since you brought up Ted Stevens, I might take a moment to recall the Rovean dirty trick of identifying Vietnam War veteran Max Cleland with Osama bin Laden back in 2002; all for the benefit of a guy whose trick knee got him out of the draft.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  60. barbintheboonies says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: LOOK IT UP It`s all over FB

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  61. teve tory says:

    In a sense, Trump voters are getting what they want most–validation that their loudmouth dumb racist bullshit is good and proper, after years of a consistent message from the broader culture telling them to stop being dumb racist dumbasses, which hurt their fee-fees.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  62. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    LOOK IT UP It`s all over FB

    You mean the Russian propoganda outlet???
    Muhhahahahahaha…no wonder you are so confused.
    Bwhuhahahahahahahahahaha!!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  63. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    I do not have a link

    Yeah…that’s what I thought.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  64. barbintheboonies says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: Believe in your own dream, you may wake up some day and you will have nothing. Just like N Korea.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  65. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @MarkedMan:

    Because if this portrait doesn’t show up in a lot of other pictures, it would make you wonder if it was the work of one of the white supremacists on his staff…

    No, it doesn’t. I start with the assumption that it’s a deliberate action to “put those people in their place” to begin with. Just because Trump is doing a photo op with these men as props doesn’t mean that he really honors their service or loyalty or bravery or anything else about them. Of course it’s the work of a white supremacist staffer, that’s what he has them for–designated blame.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  66. barbintheboonies says:

    @teve tory: After been chastised about any thought different from the real racist. I admit I felt afraid to say anything that anyone might disagree with. I am ashamed of that now, and I wish to speak my true feelings, and if you do not agree SO WHAT.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

  67. SenyorDave says:

    @KM: Support the troops, my ass!

    You have to remember that Trump has been through his own personal Vietnam, and what a nightmare it was!

    In an unearthed interview from 1997, Donald Trump claimed he was a “brave soldier” for avoiding STDs during his single years in the late ’90s.

    “It’s amazing, I can’t even believe it. I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world, it is a dangerous world out there. It’s like Vietnam, sort of. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave solider,” Trump said in the interview when Howard Stern asked how he handled making sure he wasn’t contracting STDs from the women he was sleeping with.

    It continues to amaze me how there is an assinine Trump quote for almost any situation. And most of his supporters excuse it as a joke or him speaking his mind. Sometimes I think we managed to elect as POTUS the single worst person in the US who hasn’t committed multiple murders.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  68. ltmcdies says:

    @barbintheboonies: you mean the Facebook with all those fake Russian accounts…..hahahahahhaaa.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  69. barbintheboonies says:

    @Just ‘nutha ig’nint cracker: Yea the old stand by all Repubs are just White Supremacist. Get off the soap box.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  70. Kylopod says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    Why isn`t anyone jumping on this black nurse who says white boy babies should be killed , because they will only grow up to be rapist. If any white person said this it would play out on tv over and over and there would be rioting in the streets. I am sick of the hypocrisy.

    I decided to look this one up. The only references on Google took me to right-wing sources, such as the New York Post and Daily Caller. I finally was able to trace a story to a local paper called Indianapolis Star. An African American nurse tweeted that white babies should be sacrificed. She was immediately fired. That was it. Nobody defended her, and nobody protested the decision.

    And your statement that if a white person said such a thing there would be riots in the street is demonstrably false. There have been many incidents of a white person making a racist tweet and being promptly fired from their job. Here is one:

    http://www.eonline.com/news/668411/regal-cinemas-employee-fired-for-racist-twitter-rant-in-wake-of-charleston-church-massacre

    Other examples: Look up Justine Sacco, Lisa Greenwood. I could go on. I found several just from a quick Google search. (The spam filter prevents me from including more links in my post.) In none of these cases was there rioting in the streets. In fact, it’s very likely that nobody in this thread (including myself) knew about any of these stories until now.

    Nobody’s jumping on the nurse story because nobody here ever heard of it until you brought it up. And no wonder: it’s a completely trivial story, perhaps worth a single news report but certainly not the level of pontificating either you or the right-wing sites have engaged in.

    The President of the United States makes racist remarks routinely, and all you can come up with as a supposed equivalent on the other side is some nurse nobody’s ever heard of who quickly faced the consequences of her actions and whom nobody is defending. You repeated this story (unsourced, of course, simply because you read it on FB, a known repository of fake news–actual fake news, not the stuff Trump calls “fake news” that is actually true) as if it proves something, when it proves absolutely nothing about anything. You’re grasping at straws.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 0

  71. restlessness says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl:

    I think Barb is talking about this

    WaPo

    but I also think losing one’s job is a consequence.

    Barb, I hear no one saying our borders should be open to all – just that we owe much of our country’s growth and prosperity to immigrants, so why the push to shut down immigration? Also, as far as I know, those who cross illegally do so for the jobs they find here. Why all the vitriol for the border crossers and not for the job providers?

    And as far as paying taxes? If the current tax plans pass, you will be paying more, not to help your fellow citizens who may have fallen on hard times, but rather to enrich those who already have a lot more money than the 99%.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  72. SenyorDave says:

    @barbintheboonies: If any white person said this it would play out on tv over and over and there would be rioting in the streets. I am sick of the hypocrisy.

    Rioting in the streets? POC have been living with real discrimination for centuries in this country, they generally choose their battles more carefully. In case you didn’t know you only have to go back a few decades to find hard-core institutionalized racism in this country, and despite what Trump might imply, it wasn’t directed at white people. But I guess Jim Crow laws were just people speaking their minds.

    I suggest you google quotes from Richard Spencer. He’s more eloquent, but is essentially a neo-nazi (and one ofthe alt-right’s stars). Also a buddy of Steve Bannon, onetime senior advisor to… Donald Trump. But I’m guessing having a white supremacist advising the POTUS is something you would be comfortable with since Trump is just speaking his mind.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  73. Taiko drum says:

    I believe most of these complaints about excessive pc are racially based because of the simple fact I only see these pc complaints where race is involved. I mean look ar barbintheboonies comments above. Pc permeates our society, yet I see no complaints about excessive pc regarding anything else except for race. I mean, do these same people think it excessive pc to not use the term retarded? That it’s OK to call autistic children retarded? Can I now call out fat people at the mall? How about that stinky b* *** with no teeth in front of me? Can I say that? I mean, I’m just telling it how it is right? Many of the people I see crying about too much pc are the LAST people who should be saying that, as they would be objects of constant public derision if their wish came true. I think pc has gone overboard in some areas, but what many are complaining about pc is just called good manners, IMHO.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  74. SenyorDave says:

    @Taiko drum: I think pc has gone overboard in some areas, but what many are complaining about pc is just called good manners, IMHO.

    Basic civility is considered PC by some. Trump is total uncivil (that’s pretty much his brand), so some of his followers aim to copy him. I would ask his supporters this: If you had a son who was 10 years old, would you want him to act like Donald Trump? To be known as a business cheat, to be hitting on women while you were married, to be caught on camera bragging about being a sexual predator, to be caught time and again making demonstrably untrue statements.

    He’s a liar, a serial adulterer, a business cheat.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  75. M. Bouffant says:

    @Just ‘nutha ig’nint cracker: The Jackson portrait in the Oval Office was entirely Trump’s idea.

    Trump hangs portrait of Andrew Jackson in Oval Office

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  76. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    Why isn`t anyone jumping on this black nurse who says white boy babies should be killed , because they will only grow up to be rapist.

    I really thought that when I saw this, I’d plug it in to the interwebs and be directed to snopes.com. Turns out that it’s a real story. I found 5 or 6 links to it on Yahoo. I chose the most radical right one–the Federalist Papers–for my comment, Turns out Barb is right and wrong at the same time.

    “IU Health is aware of several troubling posts on social media which appear to be from a recently hired IU Health employee,” the hospital said in a statement. “Our HR department continues to investigate the situation and the authenticity of the posts. During the investigation, that employee (who does not work at Riley Hospital for Children) will have no access to patient care.”
    http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/pediatric-night-nurse-tweets-that-all-male-white-babies-should-be-killed

    Turns out the exact right people, the people who can do something about it, are conducting the investigations they are permitted under the law and her contract (anyone who doesn’t like HOW the law and employment contracts permit such investigations is welcome to ask Congress to impose Federal intervention into how contracts are written). So it turns out that she is being “jumped all over” after all.

    Lighten up, Francis, and get your facts straight next time (to both her and her detractors upthread).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  77. barbintheboonies says:

    @SenyorDave: @restlessness: Hey check out The Blaze network FOR THE RECORD; A look at the Mexico Us border. Illegals are terrorizing ranchers and in one case murdered a rancher. It tells a story much different than the stories in the main stream media. They are smuggling drugs and will stop at nothing to do it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  78. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    “I was not a Trump supporter, but I am now”

    Does anybody know what condition the above statement indicates? Some sort of weird retrograde intellectual deterioration? I ask because if it is occurring on even a smallish scale, it bodes no good for the advancement of either our government or democracy in general.

    I’d like to believe Barb is just trolling us, but having some people finding their support for Trump waxing as he becomes more bigoted, crass, and loony is not a good thing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  79. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    “I was not a Trump supporter, but I am now”

    Does anybody know what condition the above statement indicates? Some sort of weird retrograde intellectual deterioration? I ask because if it is occurring on even a smallish scale, it bodes no good for the advancement of either our government or democracy in general.

    I’d like to believe Barb is just trolling us, but having some people finding their support for Trump waxing as he becomes more bigoted, crass, and loony is not a good thing.@M. Bouffant:

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  80. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    “I was not a Trump supporter, but I am now”

    Does anybody know what condition the above statement indicates? Some sort of weird retrograde intellectual deterioration? I ask because if it is occurring on even a smallish scale, it bodes no good for the advancement of either our government or democracy in general.

    I’d like to believe Barb is just trolling us, but having some people finding their support for Trump waxing as he becomes more bigoted, crass, and loony is not a good thing.

    @M. Bouffant: I don’t recall my comment saying that I didn’t know the history of the Jackson picture placement–merely that I am cynical about his motives in every part of his performance as President.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  81. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    Wow. I got three placements of the same message from one repost after a “bad gateway message. My apologies.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  82. SenyorDave says:

    @barbintheboonies: The rancher’s name is Robert Krentz. It happened in 2010. At this point it is believed that this was not a random killing, and not done by undocumented aliens but instead Krentz was targeted by drug smugglers. If your point is that there are border issues that need to be addressed fine. If your point is to try to support Trump’s “Mexico is sending (sic) rapists and murderers over here”, not fine. The “illegals are mostly criminals” narrative has been debunked. And if Trump had been a candidate who wanted to discuss border policy that would have been great. But Trump as a candidate (and as a president) is so far removed from policy it’s pathetic.

    Bottom lines is that Trump acts like he is president of the people who supported him, and no one else. I’m 59 y.o., and I can say with certainty he is the only president who has acted that way in my lifetime. Nixon ended up that way, but I believe he was mentally ill at a certain point (and almost certainly an alcoholic during much of his second term).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  83. M. Bouffant says:

    @Just ‘nutha ig’nint cracker: Didn’t mean to imply you didn’t, but w/ so many people asking why the portrait was there, didn’t staffers know any better, &c., I thought it should be clear who had the portrait hung there.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  84. Jim S says:

    @Paul L.: Except she didn’t lie. She repeated what she was told by her family, which she had no reason to doubt. Stories of Native American ancestry are common in Oklahoma. Like a lot of oral history there are doubts about it but there actually is simply at this time no proof that she is or isn’t part Native American. So no, she isn’t lying. But you are if you continue to claim that she is.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  85. becca says:

    @barbintheboonies: c’mon now, Barb…this is just getting sad.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  86. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @barbintheboonies: And General Franco is still dead, too!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  87. Lynn says:

    @barbintheboonies: “Why isn`t anyone jumping on this black nurse who says white boy babies should be killed , because they will only grow up to be rapist.

    She’s been fired.

    https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/2017/11/26/iu-health-says-nurse-no-longer-employee-following-controversial-tweet/896178001/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  88. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @Jim S: Moreover, I’ve filled out the same ethnic extraction form that she filled out during the course of my employment at institutes of higher education. In my case, we were told to check any ethnicities that we believed applied regardless of our ability to verify the claims. I don’t think that HR should give those instructions, but in the diversity hunt of the times, it was happening in at least some places.

    Alas, my Irish/Italian heritage failed at placing me in the diversity pools sought, so I was doomed to be identified in what one of my fellow (female) faculty identified as the “Trifecta of Evil”–white, heterosexual, and middle-class male.

    Of course, this was 20 years ago, I don’t think anyone could get away with saying that now, but I hope I’m wrong.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  89. de stijl says:

    Barb is a special little snowflake, because she is convinced the social notion of decency and civility prevent her from spewing fourteenth-hand unproven racist crap without push-back.

    She believes that the 1st Amendment allows you to saw any vile thing you want without *any* consequence. She thinks that other ethnic and racial groups have this, and, dammit, she wants it too!

    @barbintheboonies:

    Hey check out The Blaze network FOR THE RECORD

    Oh, my golly. Just, wow.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  90. Tyrell says:

    It doesn’t matter. That is, it does not matter what Senator Warren claimed. We live in the age of the “identification” by one’s own choice. As I understand the way this works I can say the I am part native American too. A person can identify with a particular group. And it seems to be legal in some circles.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 10

  91. dazedandconfused says:

    “Dodges With Bone Spurs?”

    Just a thought….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  92. the Q says:

    If I might channel my inner Trump and use it on so some of the Trump supporters here lamely defending the “Pocahontas’ slur:

    “I guess you must get your talking points from “Fat Hillbilly Sarah” who ladles on the makeup like Phyllis Diller on acid and whose wardrobe choices must come from the “Moms Mabley Couture Collection.”

    Can any of you wingnuts in your wildest imaginations think what the reaction would have been had Obama acted the way Trump has?

    Lynching perhaps by your idiots?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  93. the Q says:

    If I might channel my inner Trump and use it on so some of the Trump supporters here lamely defending the “Pocahontas’ slur:

    “I guess you must get your talking points from “Fat Hillbilly Sarah” who ladles on the makeup like Phyllis Diller on acid and whose wardrobe choices must come from the “Moms Mabley Couture Collection.”

    Can any of you wingnuts in your wildest imaginations think what the reaction would have been had Obama acted the way Trump has?

    Lynching perhaps by you idiots?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  94. restlessness says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    Thank you @SenyorDave for the researching the background of the poor rancher.

    Barb, I find that when I read a news item that causes an big emotional reaction, either glee or anger, that I’m best served by looking for other sources of information to either corroborate or dispel the story.

    Often I find that there’s a bit of truth, but that bit is being stretched to make a point. Or, perhaps, it’s only one side of a story. Sometimes, the story is just plain not true.

    I try to find sources that fall somewhere in the middle, using tools such as

    media bias

    The Blaze, by the way, has a right bias.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  95. SenyorDave says:

    @the Q: Can any of you wingnuts in your wildest imaginations think what the reaction would have been had Obama acted the way Trump has?

    Well he did wear jeans in the Oval Office, that was quite the scandal until it was discovered that Reagan did the same. And he once returned a salute while holding a coffee cup. And then there was the worst incident of all, the dijon mustard affair. As someone pointed out, imagine the POTUS being so disrespectful as to using a snooty foreign condiment available at any grocery in the country. What an insult to the masses!

    Slurring POWs like Trump did is nothing compared to Obama’s faux pas.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  96. M. Bouffant says:

    @the Q: “Moms Mabley Couture Collection.”

    Excellent.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  97. M. Bouffant says:

    @Just ‘nutha ig’nint cracker: The site seems to have been running slowly for a wk. or two, & I’ve been getting the “Bad Gateway” message often.

    Something our hosts might want to look into.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  98. de stijl says:

    @M. Bouffant:

    I’ve been getting the “Bad Gateway” message often.

    I blame the Gateway Pundit.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  99. wr says:

    @barbintheboonies: “LOOK IT UP It`s all over FB”

    It never really occurred to me before that “barb” was a troll, but this is a pretty strong tell. No one is actually this stupid. It’s like “she” is begging to be outed here.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  100. beth says:

    @barbintheboonies: And who do you think is buying those drugs Barb? Why get mad at the people selling them but not the people buying and using them? And lots of hate for the illegal aliens taking our jobs but you can’t spare an ounce of derision for the greedy employers who hire them so they can make more money. You want to stop illegal immigration? Start raiding the places that hire them and frog march a few executives into jail. But that would cause corporate profits to fall – it’s much easier and more profitable to convince simpletons like you to blame the brown people.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  101. wr says:

    @Tyrell: Sorry, Tyrrell, Barb’s got you way out-trolled on this thread. Better luck next time!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  102. Lynn says:

    @restlessness: “The Blaze, by the way, has a right bias.

    No kidding!

    from Media Bias, about the Blaze:

    These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.

    Factual Reporting: MIXED

    Notes: TheBlaze is a multiplatform news and entertainment network available on television, radio and the Internet founded by conservative talk radio personality and entrepreneur Glenn Beck. TheBlaze has a conservative bias in reporting. Some news stories and television personalities are not always factually accurate. (7/19/2016)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  103. de stijl says:

    @wr: …

    It never really occurred to me before that “barb” was a troll, but this is a pretty strong tell. No one is actually this stupid.

    I understand your approach, but unproven.

    There’s one of the Occam’s razor derivatives that addresses stupidity and malevolence. Gist: it’s a better assumption to deem someone stupid rather evil.

    Half of the population is below average. One quarter are either profoundly stupid or massively ignorant. Actually, there are people actually that stupid. They are quite common. They don’t understand confirmation bias and how to resist it and counter-act it.

    It would take a special soul to have to the wits to mimic barbs’s witlessness: clever, trollish, and facile enough to write witlessness witlessly.

    Trolls tend to have linguistic, tone, and prose “tells.” Basically, I’m pretending to be dumb, but I’m going to unconsciously drop a sophisticated bit of word-play into my “barb” persona because my ego demands I must do so just in order to be true to myself.

    My take on barb is WYSIWYG. She is both sui generis and as common as dirt.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  104. An Interested Party says:

    Illegal are coming here ONLY to make a better life for themselves.

    OMG! Is this true!? People are coming here to make a better life for themselves!? I’m shocked! Someone get me the smelling salts…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  105. becca says:

    @wr: BnB sure sounds like a troll or is FB capable of zombification?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  106. rachel says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    @Bob@Youngstown: YOU TOO.

    Your “arguments” pretty much boil down to this.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  107. de stijl says:

    @de stijl:

    BTW, right-leaning people people cannot process being called “snowflakes” or “SJWs.”

    Even when (or especially when) they are clearly calling for special “safe space” treatment for themselves, or are actively agitating for social justice for an under-served class.

    It’s like bad sci-fi where the hero(ine) thwarts the evil AI by making it confront its own conflicting logic.

    They literally cannot comprehend being called snowflakes or SJWs.

    This….. does….. not….. compute…… (electric explosion, wires sizzle)

    Scrappy sidekick makes a bad pun, the hero(ine) ripostes, credits roll. Commercial. Next show.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  108. Matt says:

    @barbintheboonies: I live near the border in Texas and I find your statement to be outright ridiculous. The ranchers here are more worried about the US government taking their land without compensation to build a bigger wall. One community is probably going to have part of it locked on the Mexican side of the new proposed wall. This problem extends to land owned by ranchers.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  109. Kylopod says:

    @de stijl:

    My take on barb is WYSIWYG. She is both sui generis and as common as dirt.

    To a large extent, I don’t care what she is. In this thread we’ve encountered not one, not two, but three bogus stories–and we decisively debunked each of one of them. The reaction from the righties? Crickets. And that’s what it’s always like. I’ve seen this pattern here at OTB (and at other blogs) too many times to count. In fact, this I believe is the fourth time at OTB (and even more times at other blogs) that I have corrected the lie about Elizabeth Warren faking her ancestry to advance her career, and nobody–nobody!–to this day has ever countered what I have said. They just continue repeating the lie. That’s how it always is, with every single piece of BS spewed on these forums. It goes something like this:

    “The earth is flat, and a top scientist admits it! ‘The earth is flat.’ — Neil DeGrasse Tyson, June 2016”

    “Out-of-context quote. What Neil DeGrasse Tyson actually said was ‘Believing the earth is 6,000 years old is like believing the earth is flat.'”

    “He said it, he really did! You won’t even deny it.”

    “That’s not what he was saying if you look at the full context of the quote.”

    “Putz.”

    “Ad hominem attacks don’t help your argument.”

    “Moron.”

    [A few days pass, and there’s a new thread]

    “The earth is flat, and a top scientist admits it! ‘The earth is flat.’ — Neil DeGrasse Tyson, June 2016”

    [Rinse and repeat]

    I think mainstream Internet culture concedes way too much to the logic of trolldom. Anyone who says anything asinine gets labeled as a “troll,” and then the assumption becomes that the mere act of responding to this supposed “troll” means the troll wins. The result is this perverse, topsy-turvy, Alice-in-Wonderland logic in which it’s some kind of weird accomplishment to say something stupid and get your ass handed to you. Because, you know, you’re a “troll,” and you’ve successfully “trolled” whoever beat the crap out of you in the argument.

    And you know what? If that’s how some people choose to see things, I really could care less. What I aimed to do in this thread–combat the spread of falsehoods that a lot of people are susceptible to believing (particularly the story about Warren)–I believe I have accomplished. Who gives a flying **** whether the people perpetuating these tall tales are serious about them or are just trolling?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

  110. steve says:

    I think that most of us who served in a war zone understand that if you were there, your life was at some degree of risk. That said, we understand that some of us served in positions that put them at much more risk than the rest of us. We accord those people a lot of extra respect. They deserve it. To detract from the honoring of these soldiers who are among that special group, just for the opportunity to make fun of a political opponent is demeaning. They deserved better.

    Steve

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  111. B. R. Bong says:

    This is frakking hilarious. I guess all you white Progressives need to be offended for all those dark skinned people who are too stupid to be offended themselves.

    http://www.dailywire.com/news/24045/navajo-code-talker-breaks-silence-after-trump-ryan-saavedra?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  112. de stijl says:

    @Kylopod:

    If @barbintheboonies aka barb is indeed real, a factual rebuttal would make her psychologically *more* likely to believe her “information” and to dismiss yours. Factual rebuttals are notoriously the least likely means to dissuade someone from misapprehensions if they are strongly help political beliefs (not really political per se, but tribal). Debunkings don’t affect people who are incapable of being debunked.

    If barb is a troll, she is a poorly constructed one. No charm, no panache. Boilerplate Breibart with a veneer of homespun / down-home tell-it-like-it-is.

    What I aimed to do in this thread–combat the spread of falsehoods that a lot of people are susceptible to believing (particularly the story about Warren)–I believe I have accomplished. Who gives a flying **** whether the people perpetuating these tall tales are serious about them or are just trolling?

    You decline to acknowledge that there is a difference.

    You, utterly, don’t get that a factual rebuttal is just the start of the process.

    My take differs: I pin them and dissect them.

    barb, if real, is actually easy to understand: she wants the ability to be actively, verbally racist without consequence, just like (in her mind) those other folks have it. That’s it.

    – She does not understand, nor will she ever acknowledge, white privilege.

    – She will likely never, ever get gay rights or trans rights or Native American rights because she is predisposed not to.

    She sees “those folks” as snowflakes who want “special” rights, that, we “normal” Americans do not have. She is the person Nixon courted with the “Silent Majority” speech. She is who Reagan courted with the “States Rights” speech in Philadelphia, MS.

    She is a completely understandable strain of American political life that you decline to acknowledge because her beliefs and behavior do not comport with your concept of how things *should* work.

    Every falsehood should be rebutted, but even factual, cited, and proven rebuttal is not the mic drop you think it is. That’s the starting gate.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  113. de stijl says:

    @de stijl:

    She is a completely understandable strain of American political life that you decline to acknowledge because her beliefs and behavior do not comport with your concept of how things *should* work.

    I should restate this:

    She is a completely understandable strain of American political life that you decline to acknowledge because her beliefs and behavior does not comport with your concept of how things *should* work.

    Her beliefs are immaterial to this argument.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  114. barbintheboonies says:

    @de stijl: Wow I didn`t think I was all that. Thanks

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  115. barbintheboonies says:

    @Kylopod: That`s me alright just a plain old American, and common as dirt. So what. What makes you so special?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  116. barbintheboonies says:

    @Matt: I do not, but I have watched a for the record episode and REAL RANCHERS who live on the border are terrorized on a regular basis. The government is doing nothing to help them. They steal, and kill their live stock. They said they lived there a long time and in the past would give them work, but now that`s not what they want. They are the drug cartel and are very dangerous people. Believe what you want.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  117. barbintheboonies says:

    @de stijl: Well genius why are you a liberal? It get`s you nothing. You kiss ass for likes of your base. In the end NOTHING.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

  118. barbintheboonies says:

    @Lynn: Yes, but the difference is they call BS on both sides.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  119. barbintheboonies says:

    @beth: Ya that`s great thinking. Leave the dealers alone.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

  120. barbintheboonies says:

    @An Interested Party: No they are not They are here taking what they can and getting us to pay the tab.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3

  121. barbintheboonies says:

    @wr: Outed for what? GIVING A DIFFERENT OPPINION THAN YOU.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  122. Mister Bluster says:

    All of this occurred during what was supposed to be a ceremony honoring a group of men who played a unique role in American history, the Navajo Codetalkers. During World War II, the United States military recruited Native Americans to communicate with each other in a way that the enemy could not understand.

    Why am I confused?
    OTB June 5, 2014
    Chester Nez, Last Of The Navajo Codetalkers, Dies At 93

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  123. barbintheboonies says:

    @wr: Outed for what? Having a different opinion

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  124. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @the Q: While I do admit that I laughed while reading your screed, I have to say it was unnecessarily crass and pointless. I don’t suppose you care about who you emulate, but your comment was no better nor more effective than the drivel that any other troll horcks up.

    ETA: Strive to be better and wiser than your peers. Your age demands it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  125. de stijl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    You’re not really making a case for yourself.

    Do you normally go out of your way to court such ill-will amongst the people you deal with on a daily basis? Or is it only on-line?

    BTW, I am pinning you and dissecting you. Frankly, you are mildly fascinating in a plebian and common way.

    Please continue.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  126. de stijl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    I was actually talking to Kylopod about what you represent.

    You were the impetus, but not actually material to the larger discussion. You were a symbol.

    Your further input is not actually required at this time. Thanks for your participation thus far!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  127. barbintheboonies says:

    @de stijl: I hardly deal with anyone, but if I`m asked my opinion, I will be honest. To be real I may show a little more restraint in how I say things. I try not to offend anyone, but I do not want to be anyone`s dishrag.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  128. barbintheboonies says:

    @de stijl: SNOWFLAKE This coming from the side that get`s offended by anything.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

  129. de stijl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    and common as dirt

    Don’t blame Kylopod,

    It was me who said that, he / she was only quoting me. Blame me.

    If it makes you feel any better, I was referring to the type of person you are rather than you as an actual person.

    That shouldn’t make you feel better about your conduct here, though. You are an example specifically because of the things you said.

    Here is a positive take away. I also called you:

    sui generis

    … so you have that going for you which is nice…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  130. de stijl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    SNOWFLAKE This coming from the side that get`s offended by anything.

    It’s very rewarding to be proven true is such short order.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  131. Kylopod says:

    @de stijl:

    If @barbintheboonies aka barb is indeed real, a factual rebuttal would make her psychologically *more* likely to believe her “information” and to dismiss yours.

    But that’s the thing–I’m not actually all that interested in trying to persuade her. If I do somehow succeed in that, fine, but it’s rare enough in online discussions that I don’t go in expecting it. The main value in combating falsehoods online is (a) informing lurkers who are open to listening (b) giving ammunition to those who already share my point of view but who don’t have all the facts at their disposal (c) helping to hone and sharpen my own ability to rebut these charges in offline situations when I have to think on my feet.

    I admit part of it’s a bit less noble and rational than those reasons: I’ve long held a morbid fascination with seeing people stare straight at evidence refuting their beliefs and act completely unaffected.

    You decline to acknowledge that there is a difference.

    You, utterly, don’t get that a factual rebuttal is just the start of the process.

    My take differs: I pin them and dissect them.

    And that’s fine–if that’s what interests you. It doesn’t interest me that much. Politicians, I realize, have to do a lot more than get facts across in order to win over voters. That’s one of the reasons why I’d make a lousy politician: I’m painfully aware of the fact that lots of voters are idiots, and I don’t have any inclination to hide my awareness of that fact. But the press always pays more attention to one group of idiots over the rest: namely, white working-class idiots. The press was doing this long before Trump came along. When Obama talked about voters clinging to their guns and their religion, which was as condescending as anything Hillary ever said (and indeed, Hillary tried to use it against Obama at the time, as she went around chugging beer on the campaign trail–ironic in retrospect), it confirmed all the worst stereotypes of cosmopolitan liberal elites that are supposed to be a death blow to any Democratic campaign for the White House–and that was on top of his being a black man with a Muslim name.

    The result? 365 electoral votes and the largest share of the popular vote of any Democrat since LBJ.

    Of course Obama didn’t do especially well with WWC voters, a group that had been steadily fleeing the Democratic Party since the 1990s. But he didn’t need them. And frankly, neither did Hillary. The belief that she did is one of the big myths about the 2016 election. Sure, it would have helped if she’d done marginally better among that demographic (say, losing them by only 26 points, as Obama did in 2012), but the simple fact is that if she’d done a better job of turning out the Obama coalition of minorities, college-educated whites, and younger voters, the WWC wouldn’t have mattered.

    But it’s inevitable that election outcomes are always going to be over-interpreted, and in this case the conventional interpretation became that Dems have to suck up to WWC voters if they’re to survive–and that means not only addressing their economic concerns, but also avoiding saying anything that offends their delicate souls. Complain about Trump’s referring to Mexicans as rapists, and you’re a snowflake, but suggest that the coal jobs ain’t coming back, and you’re an insensitive prick.

    Posters like Barb, troll or not, benefit from the conventional narrative about 2016 because they know they’re expected deference from those who accept that narrative, and they’re prepared to take advantage of their elevated position to try to guilt-trip liberals away from speaking the truth plainly.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  132. de stijl says:

    Is it telling that Paul L, alanstorm, MBunge, and JKB just dropped away from this discussion after their opening salvos?

    No follow-up or follow-on. Just silence and absence.

    They had no heart in this particular fight above showing the flag once. Why?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  133. de stijl says:

    @Kylopod:

    The main value in combating falsehoods online is (a) informing lurkers who are open to listening (b) giving ammunition to those who already share my point of view but who don’t have all the facts at their disposal (c) helping to hone and sharpen my own ability to rebut these charges in offline situations when I have to think on my feet.

    I like your approach here. You know what you’re doing and why you’re doing it.

    Reasons a,b, and c are all commendable (a. is a small group but potentially influential), b. is gravy, and c. is basically ego-driven, but we all do that in most of our discretionary communications, well maybe not all of us, but I belatedly realize that I do it most often than not).

    And that’s fine–if that’s what interests you. It doesn’t interest me that much.

    Remember a few weeks back when I blatantly called you a dick for your feedback on my “If Rs call the D party the “Democrat Party”, then just switch it back call the Rs the “Republic Party” to eff with them?

    You criticized my usage (and maybe my grammar) with how the “Republic Party” and how it was not on the same plane as the “Democrat Party” and adjectives are not adverbs and whatnot which I took as a poke in my ribs, and I just bailed on you?

    I did not respond to your feedback then because it would have been needlessly negative and rude.

    Here’s what I know about the two of us now: we agree on principles, we agree on direction, we just don’t align on communication means – specifically on how we proselytize (for lack of a better word.)

    Committed hard-core partisans will never (or extremely rarely) be convertible. It is right and meet to refute and factually rebut their false assertions, but remember and acknowledge that it will be both *factually correct, mostly unpersuasive, if not anti-persuasive* simultaneously. A factual correction will not win the war, but it might influence your “a” audience.

    But you missing option d:

    – Poisoning the water. Humiliating a political position to prevent someone from publicly moving to that position before they mention it, and to poison the water for followers-on who could use it as their fall-back. No rational sane person could possibly support position X.

    and option e:

    – Sweetening the water. All right-thinking folks are committed to making X the law of the land.

    d. and e. are not game changers, nor in any way fool-proof, but you need to add them to your inventory of tools.

    And by all means, try to discern your audience, and adjust your message appropriately.

    Posters like Barb, troll or not, benefit from the conventional narrative about 2016 because they know they’re expected deference from those who accept that narrative, and they’re prepared to take advantage of their elevated position to try to guilt-trip liberals away from speaking the truth plainly.

    She’s not guilt-tripping, she’s envious. She wants no-backsies, which she quite oddly thinks that black and brown people already have.

    Here’s where it matters:

    the conventional interpretation became that Dems have to suck up to WWC voters if they’re to survive–and that means not only addressing their economic concerns, but also avoiding saying anything that offends their delicate souls.

    WWC voters are this season’s Soccer Dads (I know it’s soccer Moms and Nascar Dads, but I like the Soccer Dads combo). Middle-aged and elderly rural WWC voters have become immune to, and viscerally offended by, D messaging. Their proportional number is dwindling, but the well there has been thoroughly poisoned so it seems. Few WWC adults are winnable and it is a generational play now (is the understanding.)

    The only thing that pushes WWC voters towards a D vote is the utter failure of Trump and anything related to Trumpism. (Like Nixon big failure.) No one likes to look the last fool at a jackass party.

    So what’s the 2018 play and the message that sells it? Who is the audience beyond Trad D voters? How about 2020?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  134. de stijl says:

    @de stijl:

    Reasons a,b, and c are all commendable

    God dammit. That was super douchey of me. “I agree with everything you said so please appreciate how gracious I am – ain’t I the glam awesome sh!t, now here are the 18 reasons why you’re utterly incorrect.”

    Sorry, I fail at tone often. I get the gist right but then I eff up at the margins.

    Why do I always do that? Grr!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  135. CET says:

    @de stijl:

    “So what’s the 2018 play and the message that sells it? Who is the audience beyond Trad D voters? How about 2020? ”

    The message is ‘opportunity.’ It’s that government doesn’t need to make everyone a dependent, but it can keep the strong from eating the weak for a 0.5% stock bump. The dems need to reposition themselves as the party of self-reliant middle and working class citizens.

    I’d like to see an aggressive effort to break up existing monopolies, a tax code (and a healthcare system) that favors small businesses over international corporations, a mechanism to fund schools in poor areas (both urban and rural) and for that money to go towards programs and motivated teachers rather than ipads (the way the public schools handle and fund special ed may also need reworking), a serious attempt to reverse the death of small farming, etc. etc.

    In short, I think the play is to realize that the left has basically won the culture wars and to work on shepherding us to a more distributist economy (in the Chesterton/Belloc sense of the word, as opposed to socialism). I think that can be done in a way that resonates with the white vote, and that helps minorities obtain the economic equality that is essential to improving race relations in this country.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  136. de stijl says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    You kiss ass for likes of your base. In the end NOTHING.

    That’s actually fairly insightful.

    I sorta like getting thumbs up-votes even though I don’t like to acknowledge to myself I like getting thumbs up-votes, but I do actually like getting the thumbs up-votes. It’s vain and unseemly, but dammit, I like the thumbs! Apparently. I am shallow.

    I disavow what I just wrote, I did not write that! That was fake news, and you should ignore it because valid reasons.

    Personally, I blame the person who invented thumbs.

    I am utterly blameless in this matter, the matter of which we will not speak of again.

    You end that note with utter nihilism, but that’s your call….

    In the end NOTHING.

    Kinda Big Lewbowski “nihilist” derivative. “Ve beleef in nuzzing!” Just take the four dollars, man!

    Yeah, in the end it really amounts to nothing. (Albert Camus says “o Hai!”)

    But we’ve still got to put Donny’s ashes in – or close to – the Pacific. And a white Russian. And I’d like my rug back. It really pulled the room together.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  137. KM says:

    @barbintheboonies:

    @Matt: I do not, but I have watched a for the record episode and REAL RANCHERS who live on the border are terrorized on a regular basis.

    Sooo…. Matt actually lives there but you know more about it then him because you saw something on TV. Tell me, are you that idiot that questions the doctor on absolutely everything because that’s not what WebMD recommends and you read an article about how Big Pharma’s getting doctors to lie about things like colds when it’s *really* walking pneumonia?

    So far you’ve cite FB and TV as primary sources for your opinion while ignoring differing facts from people who literally know more about it then you. No wonder you’re now a Trump fan – that’s *exactly* how *he* gets his news – screw the intelligence gathering agency, somebody on FB’s got the real dirt!!! And like him, you’re angry at the world for failing you when the failure’s really on the inside. I’ve known people like you all my life Barb – rude small minded people from a small town who are bitter as sh^t when life doesn’t go your way. It’s always somebody else’s fault, people are always conspiring to keep you down, everybody else is a snowflake but you could have been a contender and how dare the ones that got away come back and “flaunt” their wealth by being an “elite”. You and Trump are made from the same mold.

    If you’ve got time to read stupid sh^t on FB, you’ve got time to do something about it. Drive your ass down to the border and do some real research. You’d be surprised at how many conservative ranchers along the border do NOT want the Wall but rather sensible border control. The Wall is going to steal their land, cut off their access to resources and ruin their ranches, while effective border control will let them keep everything in safety. But hey, you saw an episode!!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  138. de stijl says:

    @KM:

    My unproved Facebook anecdotes are realer than your cross-checked and verified facts, libtard!

    Illegals are stealing our essence and corrupting our fine daughters!

    Illegals are making me and my friends physically addicted to and psychologically dependent upon opioids because of our irrational fear of illegals stealing our vital essence and corrupting our daughters. QED, mother-lovers!

    “Are there any Illegal immigrants you actually live in your podunk county?”

    60 folks or so. They work down at the meat plant 16 hours or so and then at night they lock ’em up in the two trailers they got up there.

    “How can virtual slave workers steal your vital essence?”

    When I call the bank, I have to punch 1 for English. What part of dial 1 for English do you not effing understand? LOOK IT UP It`s all over FB!

    —–

    Actual quotes on this thread:

    Trump is who he is, and he does offend some, but I have heard many blacks and Hispanics say a lot worse. Nobody jumps on their trash. I am not just talking about regular people. I`m talking celebs, and government officials. Play fair. The white guy has been belittled harassed and hung out to dry. I for one am sick of it.

    According to progressives,Pocahontas is now a Racist slur. Like Redskins.

    But you guys keep pretending that a proper name (Pocahontas) is the same as calling someone the N-word.

    It`s okey dokey to call white people cracker or honkey should these be called c word or h word? PC BS for snowflakes.

    Many blacks and Hispanics and others are leaving the Democrat party because they are seeing what the Dems are becoming. They want what most people do. A strong country UNITED. They want chances to get ahead not be a slave to the Dem party on the welfare line. They don`t want to have to like everything the Dems hold onto just to get voters. We all need to push to center and grow.

    All I need these days is a allegation. And her entry in Pow Wow Chow.

    Because it is working. People have started talking again. He has given people permission to speak their minds too. We had just cowered to the loud mouths and let them take over. We need to take our voices back.

    Not everyone was insulted Did you ever consider that we are being conditioned to feel insulted over anything. I am part Native American too and I just thought it funny. Look at the leaders in the middle East now they are offensive. Look at Kim Jung Un now he`s offensive.

    It just makes me sick we are just supposed to shut up work and open up our wallets to anyone who wants it.

    —–

    Those quotes were totally not racist because the people who said them either stated, “I am not a racist”, or “I cannot be a racist because I am part Native American too…”

    Irony weeps, the Ir-It page in the dictionary is damp.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  139. Paul L. says:

    @Jim S:
    Same defense as the Bush TANG memos. No expert has examined the documents so you can not say they are fake.
    She can take a DNA test.
    Sad there was no push back at comparing Elizabeth Warren to Melissa Click.
    They both have same smug superiority and believe in it as a cop.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  140. KM says:

    @de stijl:

    It just makes me sick we are just supposed to shut up work and open up our wallets to anyone who wants it.

    That’s the one that always gets me. People that grow up dirt poor and don’t have a pot to piss in talk like there’s really something in their wallet to steal. They never had anything, their parents and grandparents never had anything but it’s always somebody stealing from them, not them being unjustly deprived of fair pay. I knew 3rd gen living-in-rusted-out-trailers living-off-gov’s-teat people who would bitch that the gubmint was stealing their hard earned tax dollars by taxing their Pepsi to give to “ungrateful foreigners.”

    MAGA worshippers believe this to be their renaissance but it’s really the blindfold before the firing squad. Barb doesn’t get it’s her new BFF that’s the one telling them to shut up, open that wallet and get to work for their betters like a good little serf. She’s pissed that people are calling her to task for conflating rudeness with “speaking their minds” and doesn’t seem to get the connection that people who do that tend to not be really employable in any sort of “good job”. I’d never hire anyone like Barb and apparently Trump wouldn’t either (he prefers H1-B dontcha know). Someone like her is just a bad business prospect so the economy will keep on passing her and hers by. That wallet’s just gonna get emptier and emptier especially if the new tax plan goes through.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  141. wr says:

    @de stijl: “My take on barb is WYSIWYG. She is both sui generis and as common as dirt.”

    You could well be and probably are right. It was just that phrase “It’s true — look it up on Facebook” (or whatever her exact wording was) seemed to be the moment when a troll is begging to be discovered. But it is indeed possible she meant it. Hell, we’ve got Trump for a president and a Republican congress raising taxes on poor people so that Don Jr doesn’t have to pay inheritance taxes while people like Barb praise them all for their attention to the little people…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  142. wr says:

    @Paul L.: Could you translate that into English and then repost?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  143. de stijl says:

    It amuses me that barb cannot do a correct apostrophe.

    How do you even do that weird flying, backwards apostrophe thingy? Is it the lower case tilde key?

    Test:

    I’m savvy (left of Enter, lower case quote)

    I`m savvy (left of 1, lower case tilde)

    Blockquote test from copy/ paste:

    It`s okey dokey…

    previewed it and see the difference

    researched apostrophes on Grammar.com and it looks like she is using the wrong key. SB lower case quote rather than lower case tilde.

    What the heck is lower case tilde used for then (in English)?

    Ah, further research (which my 18-20 yo self who studied Linguistics hopefully knew, but my something-something old butt has totally forgotten)

    – a grave (or more frequently a grave accent) is a diacritical mark not used in English, but is used in many languages for a host of things: pitch, stress, mouth openness, et alia. Google is my friend!

    Technically, lower case quote ‘ is an English apostrophe, but the lower case case tilde ` is a grave accent which is a diacritical mark (diacritical marks are the things above letters – think squiggly mark above n in some Spanish words to denote a “ny” sound in like in canyon, or the umlaut in fake metal and bad RPG games or in real German or Hungarian words, but we’ve totally stolen because it is bitchin’ Bäd äß . Grave accents are unused in English and there is no real reason for it be on an English QWERTY keyboard.

    Normal English apostrophe should be lower case quote (usually just left of ENTER) for:

    I’m savvy

    Grave accent is the lower case tilde (usually just left of 1) for

    I`m savvy

    It is not an apostrophe, it looks funny, and if transitive logic proves correct is pretty racist, but maybe not because it is part Native American too. Or so it asserts.

    I inherently harbor distrust towards these foreign diacriticals. If God intended us to have more than 26 phonemes, He would have given us a more adequate keyboard.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  144. de stijl says:

    @wr:

    There are just as many dumb people as there are smart people. But trolling as dumb when one is smart takes a special combination of sociopathy: smarts, the ability to write witlessness precisely witlessly enough to hide your “tells”, and also ,urrm, sociopathy like I just said like 12 words ago.

    My vote is dumb, but I could be wrong.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  145. de stijl says:

    @wr:

    It was:

    “LOOK IT UP It`s all over FB!”

    I heart this so much.

    So much passion. So much delusion. So much wrongness. So much random capitalization. So much weird, backwards flying apostrophe.

    It is the quintessential 2017 political argument.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  146. grumpy realist says:

    @barbintheboonies: Considering that Facebook is notorious for having “fake news” churned out by the St. Petersburg Russian troll factory….I must conclude that:

    …either you’re a troll yourself…..

    ….or you are one of the gullible marks Putin is pushing fake news to in attempts to destabilize the US.

    How does it feel knowing that you’ve been played by the Russkis?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  147. de stijl says:

    “LOOK IT UP It`s all over FB!”

    Had there only been a Jesse Pinkman comma and a “Bitch” at the end of it and a “Yo” at the front.. Just think. This what could have been:

    “Yo, LOOK IT UP It`s all over FB, BITCH!

    Yeah! Science, bitches!”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  148. wr says:

    @de stijl: Maybe she’s a dumb troll.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  149. Monala says:

    @de stijl: Such rebuttals are not for the trolls who post the nonsense. They are for the silent lurkers who may have an open enough mind to consider factual information that disproves whatever latest nonsense is being spewed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  150. Kylopod says:

    @de stijl:

    You criticized my usage (and maybe my grammar) with how the “Republic Party” and how it was not on the same plane as the “Democrat Party” and adjectives are not adverbs and whatnot which I took as a poke in my ribs, and I just bailed on you?

    I was offering a theory on the linguistic/grammatical mechanism underlying the phrase “Democrat Party” and suggesting that “Republic Party” was not the equivalent. Sorry you took it as an insult, but it really wasn’t. (I never criticize someone’s grammar unless the person is an obvious troll–c’mon, I thought this response was hilarious.) You were right in your basic characterization of me, though: I am pedantic, verbose, and rather nitpicky, and I certainly can see how that can get on people’s nerves.

    Here’s what I know about the two of us now: we agree on principles, we agree on direction, we just don’t align on communication means – specifically on how we proselytize (for lack of a better word.)

    And that gets to an important point: I’m not here to proselytize. I’m not even sure I’d say I’m trying to “persuade” anyone, exactly. I think of what I try to do is prove my points and disprove someone else’s. I’m not closeminded: I’ve been swayed by other people’s arguments before. But I definitely tend to view these discussions as coming down to what facts people have on their side. I’m well aware that facts aren’t what influence most people (they may even have a negative influence by provoking people to dig in their heels), and you know what? I just don’t care.

    Persuasion to me suggests an emotional component. Bill Clinton was brilliant at it. I think of a famous exchange at one of the 1992 debates, where an audience member asked President Bush how the national debt had affected him personally. The question was a trap, for two reasons: (1) Bush, as a person of privilege, was obviously immune to most of the nation’s economic woes, and there was little he could say that would not come off sounding out of touch (2) The audience member was confused about basic economic concepts and was using the term “the national debt” as a stand-in for economic problems in general.

    Bush fell straight into the trap. He started to ramble about how the debt affected interest rates, and then he added, “I don’t think it’s fair to say, you haven’t had cancer, therefore you don’t know what’s it like”–a statement that only called attention to his inability to answer the question in a satisfying way.

    For some reason, Clinton’s answer is often quoted as him having said “I feel your pain,” even though he never actually used those words and didn’t really express that idea, at least not directly. In fact he didn’t answer the woman’s question at all. He actually did point out that the national debt wasn’t the only thing causing problems in the economy, and then he launched into Democratic talking points about the failures of trickle-down economics. His answer, nonetheless, was widely considered to have knocked it out of the park, due to his ability to convey empathy.

    Like I said, I’d make a lousy politician. I’m smart and well-informed, but I don’t attempt to connect with people on an emotional level in order to persuade them. It’s not just that I’m bad at it, I don’t even have any interest in it.

    So what’s the 2018 play and the message that sells it? Who is the audience beyond Trad D voters? How about 2020?

    My suggestion is that they focus on turning out the Democratic base (minorities, the young, the college-educated) and run on a message of the Democrats’ popular agenda as contrasted with the unpopular, fraudulent one being pushed by the Republicans. Some people think that’s a stale formula, but I think it’s the best we’ve got at present, and it works when carried out properly.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  151. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @de stijl:

    “Are there any Illegal immigrants you actually live in your podunk county?”

    Probably, but I don’t know for sure. (for the record, barb and I live in the same city, probably fairly close to one another)

    60 folks or so. They work down at the meat plant 16 hours or so and then at night they lock ’em up in the two trailers they got up there.

    How did you know that there is a Foster Farms packing plant across the river? Uncanny! (and for the record again, there are two trailers parked constantly parked near the employee entrance, so I can’t rebut the locking up part…)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  152. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @de stijl: I don’t think (but it’s been a long time since I studied linguistics, too) that phonemes in English are limited to the alphabet letters, so there are more than 26. For example, all the blends–ch, sl, th (unvoiced), th (voiced), etc. are also phonemes.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  153. Paul L. says:

    @wr:
    Elizabeth Warren is just a older version of Melissa Click.
    Do you believe the Bush TANG memos are genuine?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  154. wr says:

    @Paul L.: Just curious: Is your life really as worthless and miserable as you make it seem in your postings?

    And are you really as terrified of women as you seem?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  155. Matt says:

    @barbintheboonies:I can’t even decipher what you’re tying to say with the following word salad.

    I do not, but I have watched a for the record episode and REAL RANCHERS who live on the border are terrorized on a regular basis.

    Could you try again?

    I don’t “believe what I want” I go and visit and talk to them myself. I’ve been to the border MANY times over the last 9 years. I have fellow college students, coworkers, and friends who have family just across the border in Mexico (some deeper). I don’t rely on some news site with an agenda to fill my head with stuff I want to believe. I’ve gone and seen for myself what is going on. If ranchers were “being terrorized on a regular basis” here then the National guard would of already shot them. The Texas national guard has been on the border since Obama’s era with the federal government helping to foot the bill. They regularly launch drone patrols from an airbase near here.

    Ever heard of the oathkeepers? three percent united patriots? No? Well those are a couple of SEVERAL “patriot/militia” groups that patrol the border on the US side. Those people are the ones that ranchers were getting pissed about here because the militia types think they are the law. They are more annoying than the few illegals that passed.

    Frankly I’m tired of special little snowflakes like you who think they know everything and by gosh the rest of us should just bow down to your superior knowledge. It doesn’t matter to you that I actually have physically been to the border and know people who live there. Because since you are a special snowflake then obviously your chosen source of news must always be 100% correct and surely I’m just lying because uhhh well because I’m saying something your special existence doesn’t want to believe. Listening to contrary information would challenge your mind and that’s bad so you’d rather hide in your safe space of the blaze and whatever else you use.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0