This is an honorable response. I'm a big Obama fan and I don't envy the position that a stupid supporter has put him in; this image is going to be in emails and blog posts attacking him from here until January of 2017.

I read somewhere that more than one office has this flag. Let's be fair here. Obama is allowed to have friends of Castro as his friends. I believe he also supports Chavez's efforts to be social in South America.

PS:

SDM: A little revealing that you are upset about Obama's followers choice of decoration. You and he should be strenously arguing for their right to display what they want.

If you watched the actual fox news clip, you would learn that these are volunteers and this is not an official campaign office.

John Cole’s suggestion that the flag is merely a statement on our Cuba policy strikes me as giving credit where it decidedly isn’t due. Che worship (or, alternatively, the wearing of Che t-shirts as a statement without the slightest clue of who he was) seems to be a phase that certain left-leaning activists go through in their youth; it generally passes. Driscoll’s characterization of it as “juvenilia” is spot on.

I never suggested any such thing. All I said was this was much ado about nothing, evidence that the GOP party flacks are starting to worry about Obama, and then, as an aside, I wrote:

"BTW- Is there anyone except the troglodyte right who thinks our Cuba policy has been a success and doesn’t need to be thought through?"

BTW means by the way, and my aside was little more than a random thought, and NOWHERE in my post did I assert, imply, or anything else that the reason these folks had the silly flag up was to make a 'statement' on our Cuba policy.

Don't believe Ed's spin.

Here is the actual clip:
Notice the disclaimer below the video.

This is not an official Obama campaign office with staffers. These are volunteers and with all volunteers (i.e. take a look at the signs carried by the some of the dignified Freepers at GOP events), you get some wackos. As I understand it, the Obama campaign has disavowed any connection and asked the volunteer to take it down.

Am I right in thinking this is very similar to holding a Blogger responsible for every opinion in the comment section?

The campaign's responsibility, like a Blogger, extends only to their willingness to keep up reprehensible postings after their attention is brought to them. The Obama campaign took it down.

Yup, my mistake, needed to look a little closer, thought it was a Conquest of the planet of the Apes poster, lol, it really is a terrorist on a flag.

Yet another daily tempest in a teapot. And if the Right Blogosphere want to build an argument out of this they should at least build a decent argument (I think there are a couple to be made). But this dog won't hunt.

Thanks, James.

Morrissey is being fair all the way around. Now that it has become an issue the official campaign should simply ask for the flag to be taken down as it reflects on the candidate. Should the campaign be held responsible that it was there in the first place? No. But it now becomes responsible for it staying there if it does not come down.

To me it's not so much a symbol of subversion or lack of loyalty as it is a symbol of immaturity and naivety. Those labels are something the campaign should avoid.

You liberals are all missing the point here: it is volunteers for Barack Hussein Obama who have a communist mindset that have displayed the flag. Sure, it is not Barack Hussein Obama himself, but should it be any surprise that his supporters display a Cuban flag and worship a murderous terrorist? No!

And John Cole: our US policy toward Cuba has indeed been a rousing success! It shows that a communist nation has a very hard time being successful w/o America help, and how its citizens will do nearly anything to escape. Also, they live in a 1950's time capsule with its population virtually prisoners. Hmmm...yet it is democrats who want to emulate their system. Interesting...

I believe he also supports Chavez's efforts to be social in South America.

This might be irritating if one could figure out what it is supposed to mean.

On what basis do you believe he supports Chavez in his efforts to be social, whatever that is?

I supposed if it were a Confederate flag it would have been okay.

Personally I find this more revealing about the type of person drawn into the Obama cult than about Obama's policy positions on Cuba.

But still, Obama has given many signals to his supporters that his foreign policy will be more of the kumbaya type than of the confrontational type. That is all well and good when aimed at our friends. But dangerous to an extreme the way Obama will use it with our enemies as well. It is almost like he is oblivious to the fact that people like Che Guevara still actually exist in this world. And contra to what Obama thinks his warm hugs all around policy will not keep us safe.

I used to be very favorably inclined toward Obama. During this campaign however I grew to dislike him intensely.

What did Che Guevara do to classify his as a terrorist? I'm unaware of him engaging in any acts of violence that were aimed at terrorizing a population. Instead, it seems that he engaged in pretty conventional warfare and insurrection.

What he did in terms of tactics isn't really any different from any insurrectionists have done, including George Washington and all of those who fought under him...

Now that doesn't mean that the politics and policies of Che and Washington are interchangeable.

What was the name of that book that Goldberg fellow wrote? "Liberal....." ummmm "Liberal Compassion"? Nooooo. Um...."Liberal Liberal Liberal..."

Darn.

Ok google, here I come.

HAH!

Found it!

"Liberal Fascism"!

Someone thinks of Obama as Che-like out there. Check the mug. I don't think Obama is responsible, but as usual, some on the left cheer on those who actually deserve condemnation.

Guevara was responsible for executions without trial, political imprisonments, and the like. Its worth looking into if you are not sure what acts he may have committed.

This flag by a volunteer, shows the mindset of the followers of this candidate. Isolated incident? We shall see as it is harder in this internets age to keep these incidents from the public view.
Your concern is that it got exposed so you attack the messenger and defend the message (Che Guevera as a heroic figure). Sad.

Scott,

Among the many horrible unspeakable things Che did: he sentenced to death young teenage boys whose fathers had been against communism. He would allow their mothers to beg for their son's lives, but overwhelmingly would reject their pleadings and order their sons to be hanged. He was given this power by Castro.

Good guy for you liberals to worship.

Well,

I don't want to upset Obama, but he is going to HAVE TO TAKE A LOYALTY OATH if he is sworn in as president.

Or is he going to balk at that?

I've said it before and doubtless there will be cause to say it again- the right's utter terror of communism is pretty dang amusing.

What was the name of that book that Goldberg fellow wrote?

Another homeschool wonder who doesn't understand the difference between fascism and communism. Much like Goldberg himself.

I'm not saying that Che Guevara was a nice guy. For the record, Hitler wasn't a terrorist, neither was Stalin. Now the IRA, the Basque nationalist movement, the Kurds in Turkey and Fatah have clearly engaged in terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic, not a moral state.

Among the many horrible unspeakable things Che did: he sentenced to death young teenage boys whose fathers had been against communism. He would allow their mothers to beg for their son's lives, but overwhelmingly would reject their pleadings and order their sons to be hanged.

Yeah, and Iraqi troops threw Kuwati infants out of incubators and stepped on them. Remember, when lying, less is more.

Hi James.

The Leading Lizard is now saying you're carrying out "damage control for Barack Obama":

If I’m “insinuating” anything, it’s this: when you actively pander to and encourage the radical leftist elements of your party, as the Democrats have been determinedly doing for the past eight years, you’re going to end up with embarrassing scenes like this.

And attacking the messenger who points it out is standard political damage control.

The leading lizard seems to think you're a Dem, simply for disagreeing with him.

Have you considered it? I'm sure they'd be delighted to have you and John Cole can attest that you won't go blind or impotent.

I'm sorry Johnston's being such an ass - but when you actively pander to and encourage the radical rightist elements of your party (e.g. LGF), as the Republicans have been determinedly doing for the past twenty years, you’re going to end up with embarrassing scenes like this.

Regards, C

"The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating."

er um.... and just what is the oath of the office of the President?

"The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating."

The President's Oath of Office is a loyalty oath!

Also one for congress:
There's also one for Congress:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.

I followed the Links to Charles Johnson's site, and I can't find anything remotely resembling what you have asserted in the quote above re "loyalty oaths."

If a Confederate Flag were spotted on the wall of a Republican Presidential candidate, the s*** would hit the fan. It would be all over CBS, NBC, etc. It's a fair point: A person who celebrates Che is supporting Obama.

The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.

Whose suggestion was that, and exactly when? Have you a link to support your accusations? The lust for loyalty oaths appears to exist only in your mind. Do you find your own suggestions irritating?

It seems to me, though, that the implication of juxtaposing Obama’s refusal to wear an American flag pin with supporters displaying a Che flag is plain enough.

Sorry, James, I'm with Charles on this one. Equating such a juxtaposition with loyalty oaths is a stretch too far. Especially in the face of Charles' clear declaration that he was making no such implication.

No matter what Obama's own thoughts and positions, this makes him look bad just as the white supremacists' support of Ron Paul made him look bad.

I have a seriously hard time supporting any candidate who counts among his supporters fans of Che Guevara.

The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS

Goal #13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

'The “loyalty oath” goes to the whole notion — implied by Johnson and others quoted above — that Obama is under some obligation to declare that he’s anti-Communist and pro-American. Neither of those should be in doubt."

No, it should NOT be in doubt, especially for a serious contender for the presidency....yet I wonder given the company he keeps.

A reasonable rule of argument:

Please address the issues people you disagree with put forth. Don't invent stuff they probably believe too.

our US policy toward Cuba has indeed been a rousing success! It shows that a communist nation has a very hard time being successful w/o America help, and how its citizens will do nearly anything to escape. Also, they live in a 1950's time capsule with its population virtually prisoners.

You can only call that a success if this were the goal. The goal of our policy is to replace the communist government with a democratic one, not make the residents of Cuba prisoners. In that respect our policy has been a miserable failure.

I'm gay and find these Che flags VERY offensive. Since its inception, the Communist regime's treatment of homosexuals has been notorious. Gays (along with other dissenters which the Communists saw as undesirable)were sent to Che's forced labor camps where they were tortured and/or murdered. I really would like to hear more about the "Change" that Obama and his supporters are planning to bring to this country if he's in the White House.

Dismiss this if you choose to, but it does show that some of Obama's supporters are in fact radical leftist kooks. I don't expect him to answer for this, because he can't possibly know what flag is hanging on every staffers wall, BUT, when you spend eight years pandering to this element, things like this are going to happen. You sleep with skanks, there's a good chance you get an STD, ya know???? If nothing else, I have yet another reason to NOT vote for BO for president if he were to get the nomination.

The President's Oath of Office is a loyalty oath!

no, it isn't. Here's the oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

it is an oath of duty, not loyalty.

it is an oath of duty, not loyalty.

Now who's splitting hairs?

Some interesting comments, and some that raise questions. I wonder if some here think about the implications of what they are saying.

While it might be fair to say that a supporter placing a Cuban flag in a campaign office is not expressing official opinion of the campaign, one could expect that any voter would like to hear an explanation of why the campaign allows it. Of course that could include any response, such as having Cuban Communist supporters or whatever, but still any American voter could reasonably expect an official response from the campaign. I would expect a similar explanation from anyone hanging the Confederate flag on the wall.

Since the original allegation is that Johnson says that Obama needs to swear a loyalty oath, I would like to see you cite where you got that from, since I can't find it. Otherwise, apologize.

Also, I do not fear Communism. I hate it. It has been the cause of untold suffering in our lifetimes. It is impossible to hold to the philosophical underpinnings of Communism and be faithful to American values concerning the freedom of the individual. So if you are a Communist, you are not an American. Period.

Now who's splitting hairs?

Words have meaning. Duty and loyalty are not even remotely the same thing.

If it were a Nazi flag or a KKK banner, none of the "enlightened" discussion (above) would take place. Nor would Obama hesitate for a nanosecond to disavow it and order it to be taken down.

Che is just another immature way to give the finger to the establishment for too many on the left. Those who find reason to explain this away are only serving the Kook-Aid.

Integrity is made of sterner stuff.

Also, I do not fear Communism. I hate it. It has been the cause of untold suffering in our lifetimes.

You say that as if capitalism hasn't...

I don't find either philosphy very attractive, but listening to Hitler call Stalin "evil" cracks me up.

Tlaloc,

You are inventing stuff. Where in my post do you see anything anywhere remotely connected to capitalism?

Fact. More people have died as a result of Chinese Communism, Cuban Communism, and Stalinism that any other single factor. The common linking characteristic is Communism.

Fact. More people have died as a result of Chinese Communism, Cuban Communism, and Stalinism that any other single factor. The common linking characteristic is Communism.

Any other factor? I'm guessing you don't have a link to that statistic.

Sorry James. You have had a contrary thought and it looks like you have not met the criteria of the conservative idealogical police. You are no longer allowed to call yourself a conservative and must now be disowned.

Thank you for playing.

So if you are a Communist, you are not an American.

Fortunately for us Americans, our citizenship is not dependent on our philosophical opinions.

"You can only call that a success if this were the goal. The goal of our policy is to replace the communist government with a democratic one, not make the residents of Cuba prisoners. In that respect our policy has been a miserable failure."

Sorry mate. Cuba has the rest of the world to trade with. That they cannot improve the standard of living of their people is a testament to Cuban governance, not US policy.

You are no longer allowed to call yourself a conservative and must now be disowned.

James has been ex-conservated?

* I'm trademarking that word, every time a conservative blow-hard says some other conservative is no longer a conservative, they have to pay me a royalty.

Sorry mate. Cuba has the rest of the world to trade with. That they cannot improve the standard of living of their people is a testament to Cuban governance, not US policy.

Ok, first of all, that wasn't my point. My point was that Cuba as it is now was not the goal of our policy.

Secondly, being that the US is still the world's largest economy, and the biggest consumer of global products, not being able to trade with us would hurt any country, regardless of it's form of government.

Sorry mate. Cuba has the rest of the world to trade with. That they cannot improve the standard of living of their people is a testament to Cuban governance, not US policy.

Actually, by US law, any ship that docks in Cuba may not dock in the US. So the rest of the world has to choose between trading with the US or trading with Cuba.

it is probably pretty unfair to whack BO with the Che bit, to be sure. campaigns are free-wheeling, nuts affairs full of people you wouldnt ordinarily necessarily sit next to at McDonalds off the interstate.

that said, Im amused at some of the reactions here. broadcasting the images was hackish certainly, but also neatly hit one of the evergreen Democratic sorespots, which is their utter inability to throw their marginal hands overboard. consider that a roomful of workers for a very viable candidate for PoTUS worked around, and passed by, an image glorifying a communist revolutionary murderer. and no one said, "hey, maybe that belongs on your dorm wall, you know, theres the whole optics bit, and the 50 million who died following the ideology. Just sayin is all...."
nope, no one harshed the mellow.

Cant grasp that? think of your honest reactions if a Mccain office had a confederate flag prominetly displayed--and no one said a peep.

cheap shots over moral ineptitude make for silly distractions during campaigns.

Sorry James,

I agree with Billy Hollis, Charles has established his integrity. Your PC head tilt has once again given us pause.

If a Confederate Flag were spotted on the wall of a Republican Presidential candidate, the s*** would hit the fan. It would be all over CBS, NBC, etc. It's a fair point: A person who celebrates Che is supporting Obama.

Like, for example, a sitting Vice President visiting a hunting lodge with a Confederate flag flying? I know where I stood on that issue- it was a stupid non-issue.

All the concern troll BS from Ed and others a la "Does Obama know his volunteers are flying a Che flag" is just the latest round of stupid from this crew of buffoons.

Scott Swank says, "What did Che Guevara do to classify his as a terrorist? I'm unaware of him engaging in any acts of violence that were aimed at terrorizing a population. Instead, it seems that he engaged in pretty conventional warfare and insurrection"

Well, let's see: Argentinian born, Cuban guerilla and fomenter of revolutions in Congo and Bolivia. Neither of which he was invited into. Hardly "conventional" warfare.

His additional duties under "conventional" warfare included extra-judicial executions and warden of an infamous prison in Cuba, with him being quoted as saying he didn't need legal documents to execute anybody he felt deserved execution.

Some Obama supporters probably feel the same way.

If a low-level staffer for John McCain suspended photos of a right-wing terrorist superimposed over said terrorists national flag, I suspect you'd all be singing a different tune. I further suspect that that story would make headlines in the mainstream media. Of course, no conservative would ever disrespect the country or the candidate by executing such an immature act.

The President's Oath of Office is a loyalty oath!

no, it isn't. Here's the oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

it is an oath of duty, not loyalty.

Replace "Constitution of the United States" with "King of France" and what do you have?

Scot:

"Actually, by US law, any ship that docks in Cuba may not dock in the US. So the rest of the world has to choose between trading with the US or trading with Cuba."

Surely, the rest of the world can spare ships to go to Cuba and others to go to the USA.

TO: James Joyner
RE: A Proposed Bumper Sticker

Obama/Guevera '08
CHEnge we can believe in!

I LIKE it.....

These images, along with his unwillingness to (1) sport a bit of metal on his lapel and (2) 'salute' during the Pledge of Allegiance/National Anthem/whatever, are going to make what the SwiftVets did the Kerry look like a love-fest.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

TO: davod
RE: Not Much....

"Surely, the rest of the world can spare ships to go to Cuba and others to go to the USA." -- davod

...of a student of logistics, are you.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.]

TO: John425
RE: All That....

"Well, let's see: Argentinian born, Cuban guerilla and fomenter of revolutions in Congo and Bolivia. Neither of which he was invited into. Hardly "conventional" warfare." -- John425

....and, apparently, something of a racist too.

According to some reports I've picked up over the last year or so, Che didn't think much of other people who had darker skin than his.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Where there is no religion, hypocrisy becomes good taste. -- George Bernard Shaw]

Hmm.

Methinks that had this been a Confederate flag in a district office for Mike Huckabee or Fred Thompson, your position would be the polar opposite, no? Instead of supporting the right to speak their mind you'd be condemning it, right?

No wonder poles exist in politics.

You are inventing stuff. Where in my post do you see anything anywhere remotely connected to capitalism?

I said it is funny how the right fears communism. You responded that you didn't fear it- which implies you consider yourself on the right. The right has a huge hard on for free market capitalism. A->B->C

Fact. More people have died as a result of Chinese Communism, Cuban Communism, and Stalinism that any other single factor. The common linking characteristic is Communism.

Really?
Mao's "cultural revolution" killed up to 1.5 million. His original revolution maybe 2-5 million. Stalin (not actually a communist but whatever) killed less than a million with the "Great Purge." I know you guys like to blame CHina's famine on Mao but that's pretty disengenous, not to mention the figures for how many died get ridiculously inflated.

By way of comparison-
AIDS has killed 25 million and infects another 33 million
Spanish Flu killed 25 million
Black Death killed 20-30 million

But if you want to restrict yourself to philosophical causes- estimates of the Native American loses in just North America at the hands of european colonizers range up to 100 million. In fact if we add the destruction of the Native Americans (including in south america) to the inquisitions and the crusades Christianity comes out far and away the leading cause of death, when talking philosophies. Easily.

Replace "Constitution of the United States" with "King of France" and what do you have?

Ooh... ooh.. I know! A monarchy and not a Constitutional Republic!

That is just silly. It's like saying "replace Senator McCain with Duke McCain and what do you have?" There's a reason the President swears an oath to defend the Constitution, rather than, say, the American people. Threats to the Constitution can come from within.

Actually, there's more than one Che flag. There's another one in a different office at the same campaign HQ. Obviously, there's more than one Che supporter in Barack's camp.

Check out the Fox Houston website for a second video.

sorry the black death killed *75* million. 20-30 was just the estimate for europe.

NOT EMPLOYEES OF THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN.
NOT AN OFFICIAL OBAMA CAMPAIGN OFFICE.

'nuff said.

Here is a much better picture.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20080211ObamaCheHouston2.jpg

TO: Jessica
RE: Yeah....Right....

"NOT EMPLOYEES OF THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN.
NOT AN OFFICIAL OBAMA CAMPAIGN OFFICE.

'nuff said." -- Jessica

They're just the 'advance party', or 'Lead Team". They set things up. And Obama takes over.

No affiliation whatsoeveeeeerrrrrr....

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I was born at night. But it wasn't LAST NIGHT.]

Wow Tom, you're really on the ball.

Point is that the "oath of duty " that Tlaloc was referring to is no different than an "oath of loyalty". It is exactly that, an oath of loyalty to the constitution.

TO: Jessica
RE: Oh...Yeah...

Has Obama repudiated the display of Che in association by his 'volunteers'?

Just asking.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Replace "Constitution of the United States" with "King of France" and what do you have?

You'd have an oath of *duty* to the King of France. Notice not one word in the oath says nything about *obeying.*

Loyalty means doing what they tell you to do. Duty means doing what you said you'd do. There's a pretty big distinction there.

Why is this so hard to understand. COntrast the President's oath with that of an enlisting soldier:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

The italicized parts speak to duty. The bold and italicized speaks to fidelity. The bold part speaks to loyalty.

Three different things.

It is absolutely mindnumbing that the bandwagon 'changers' are immune to what an Obama Presidency really stands for. Sure, it stands for change, but not in the direction of a stronger America.That's for sure.

One would also think that a candidate who enthuses that he would WITHOUT hesitation engage the Iranian mullahs and the Castro regime to 'dialogue' over our differences, is just a stones throw away from championing the terrorist thug Che.What a surprise.

BTW, this is the same Obama whose spiritual advisor gave a lifetime achievement ! award to the notorious antisemite Farakan, and who opines that Black Power is the antidote to Jew Power. Hmmmm.Enough said.

Can we lock the lock the little green foottards and the Paulinistas in a coat closet together?

TO: Tlaloc
RE: It Would Be VERY Hard....

...to explain much of anything to you about (1) duty, (2) loyalty and/or (3) fidelity....

....as you seem to have a serious problem recognizing the relationships of the three; as embodied by the oath of office for 'officers' of the United States.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Those who would treat politics and morality as two separate issues will never understand one, nor the other. -- Lord Blackstone, Viscount of Morley]

P.S. Change politics and morality to read duty and loyalty and you get the same result, on a different scale.

Tlaloc,

You're still splitting hairs buddy.

Although I really don't see that much difference, I do believe that the Presidential oath for all intents and purposes mostly conforms to an oath of duty. But loyalty to the same should be a given.

Like a soldier, the Commander in Chief has a "Duty" to defend the Constitution.

Duty. What they tell you to do.

And be proud of it.

TO: Adina Kutnicki
RE: Indeed

"It is absolutely mindnumbing that the bandwagon 'changers' are immune to what an Obama Presidency really stands for. Sure, it stands for change, but not in the direction of a stronger America.That's for sure." -- Adina Kutnicki

Whenever I encounter someone so adamantly for 'change', I ask them to consider putting a bullet in their brain.

After they get over the shock, I remind them that THAT would be 'change'. Then I ask them if they would be happy with it.

They usually get rather 'disgruntled'. But it does cause them to 'think' about 'change'.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Obama/Guevera '08; CHEnge we can believe in!]

TO: Cluebat
RE: It All Depends....

"You're still splitting hairs buddy." -- Cluebat to Tlaloc; regarding duty, loyalty and/or fidelity

....on how you define 'splitting'.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. The Democrats are NEVER going to live that business 'down'....until they openly repudiate Mr. Bill and all who are associated with him.

Maybe Obama is a start. But they're getting off on the wrong foot, with someone who despises the ideals espoused in the Constitution of the United States.

Umm. Cluebat might i refer you to your name while I restate the following:

An oath to a constitution is utterly different than an oath to a monarch. It is why we are a constitutional Republic and other countries are monarchies. Duty and fealty are different.

TO: Tom in Texas
RE: What...

"An oath to a constitution is utterly different than an oath to a monarch." -- Tom in Texas

....kind of education do they teach you there in Texas? Anythink like what that woman in the photo (above) got?

Duty and fealty/loyalty are, as I stated earlier to whatzizname, are intertwined. And if you don't understand that, you'll never understand either of them.

But what does that have to do with the fact that Obama supports like Che? Nothing. It's a diversion tactic from the real issue here....

....is Obama a communist? Or just a good number of his 'volunteer supporters' who happen to be his 'lead team'?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A man is known by his followers.]

TO: Tom in Texas
RE: ERRATA

That should read...

....Obama SUPPORTERS like Che?

My error.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

I hope this Cuban-American can offer his two cents worth:

First, Mr. Joyner, with all due respect - and with very little knowledge as to your background - the loyalty oath: Perhaps it may be because you were born here in the US and, thus, may have a propensity for taking the privilege of being an American Citizen for granted, the following is incorrect, and, truly irritating:

The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.

For those of us that CHOSE to become American Citizens rather than having been blessed with the privilege by birthright, we MUST swear allegiance to this country prior to becoming Citizens. Taking that loyalty oath is, for most if not all that do, by far one of the proudest moments in our lives.

To whomever stated that Che Guevara or Hitler or others were not terrorists: enough with the semantic hijinks. You dont have to bomb buildings and cafes to be a terrorist, all you have to do is instill fear into people by whatever means possible. Che was very good at that by doing little things like taking a prisoner out daily and having him stand at the paredon - the execution wall - and then faking the whole execution. he would do this until one day he just felt like killing you and you were dead. Period. He would also bring family members - moms, wives, sons, daughters, parents - of prisoners and walk them by the very same blood stained paredon where their loved one had either already been shot or was scheduled to be.

And will someone please tell me how many people one man has to kill before he is considered a mass murderer? 100? 1000? Who comes up with that number? Guevera was responsible for more deaths than Pinochet, so, who decides who's a killer or not? Why not a German flag with Hitlers face on it? Of the Hammer and Sickle with Stalins mug on it?

As for those that think that having the image of a murderous marxist/communist in a US presidential campaign headquarters - official or volunteer - is no big thing, I beg to differ. Che Guevara was a self-proclaimed enemy of the United States of America, communist and staunch anti-capitalist and, if Mr. Obama now wants my vote - because I am an American with a vote - he damned well better explain to me why it is I should even contemplate voting for him when his campaign workers are supporters of a man whose ideology I swore I would not support when I swore my loyalty oath to this country the day I became an American Citizen.

I also comepletely disagree with the "juvenilia" justification of the Che guevara image in this instance. The photos arent of a rock concert featuring Santana or of a college campus rife with naive students and leftists professors. Its a campaign headquarters for a US Presidential Election and the flag hanging on the wall isnt some naive "cool chic" thing. Its a political and ideological statement and one that runs contrary to the very core of the ideals that this Republic was founded on.

I suppose those who have no issue with the Butcher's of la Cabaña's image anywhere would think differently, had it been your father or your brother or your grandfather whose life had been taken by Che Guevara.

Just what did you restate Tom?

I searched the page and your entry is the single reference to fealty.

I know there are differences between Loyalty and Duty. Subtle differences.

Duty dealing more in the legal realm and Loyalty in the moral. Punishment for one is shame. And for the other it is clearly spelled out in code.

I leave you all to play in your swamp together.

Peace out!

Whenever I encounter someone so adamantly for 'change', I ask them to consider putting a bullet in their brain.

A little right-wing humor there. Heh, heh.

Isn't it great to have all your conservative friends join you today, James?

Unfortunately, you crossed the line when you suggested that Barack Obama may not be a communist.

He is, and the picture of Che proves it. Not only that, he's a fascist too, of the Islamo-liberal variety, and a Muslim plant. He's a fascist and a communist all rolled in to one.

It's amazing that so many of your conservative friends can see this but you can't. You sure can't fool that Johnson guy, or his acolytes.

Why is it left-leaning juvenilia to admire Che? He is a revolutionary. The winners always write history, correct? As a capitalist country we may not agree with socialism but let's not forget that there are two sides to every story.

Granted a lot of those who wear the "Che logo" have no true concept of the man...I know plenty of sociology professors who occasionally where it, while loving America and can logically debate you on your stance. As well could I...but i have to go.

Just my $0.02 Awesome site though.

AMEN...Val Prieto....eloquent and right on the mark.

Thank you

Regardless of any other factor, that these Obama supporters who hold Che so dearly, ARE in fact working feverishly to get Obama elected, would seem to suggest that THEY at least think their views about Che and the policies he called for and fought for, would find Support in an Obama White House.

I think there are some people who find that linkage disturbing. Voters, who didn't know about it... and Obama supporters, who'd rather that this connection hadn't come up... at least until after the election.

And James... I must say, I'm a little surprised. From writing my own blog, I know that years of hipshooting will tend to cause the target to get missed once in a while.

I'm going to be kind an not say more.

Well I see the conversation has afdvanced a little while I was out.

Michael, from the way you posed your question, I wonder if you understood me. I was speaking in the line of what Tlaloc mentioned afterwards, although his figures are laughable.

Estimates are that forty million were killed under Stalin alone. Here are some sources to consider. Krushchev Remembers. Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: A Reassessment. Also, The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine

The cultural Revolution and related famines where millions died. Jerome Chen, Mao and the Chinese Revolution. Ross Terrill, Mao. The Idea that the chinese Communists are responsible for only a million and a half people dying is laughable.

As far as labeling me as a right wing or left wing adherent, I personally reject that sort of thing, because I think the convenient labeling of people and placing them in identity groups is one problem that is too typical of American culture today. I personally reject all leftist thought as too stupid for words, and much right wing talk as not well thought out. I prefer to be a critical thinker, something that was quite popular before current education experts goi a hold of the education system.

TO: Pug
RE: Not Necessarily....

"A little right-wing humor there. Heh, heh." -- Pug

....'right-wing'.

More a result of 27 years in the infantry. You develop a dark form of humor with that sort of experience.

I only just recently got involved with politics. Before retirement, I was strictly apolitical.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Politics is the entertainment division of Industry.]

The President does take a loyalty oath, as do all serving military members, members of Congress, Judges, and I believe all government appointees. So if he is willing to take a loyalty oath when he becomes President what problem can he possibly have with wearing an American flag pin? It's the American Constitution after all.

Does it really irritate you that the person who wants to lead our nation is expected to swear loyalty to its Constitution? How sad it if does.

I don't expect every citizen to wear a flag pin. I could care less if they do or do not.

I do expect our fricken President to wear one though.

Oh, and Che was a murdering communist bastard. But you knew that.

Speaking of labeling Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) says "I’ve talked to Barack a lot about his Patriot Corporation Act, which is not trade per se, but it’s certainly part of the economic package around globalization. The Patriot Corporation Act has not gotten the attention that I would hope it would. But, basically it says that if you play by the rules, if you pay decent wages, health benefits, pension; do your production here; don’t resist unionization on neutral card check, then you will be designated a “Patriot Corporation” and you will get tax advantages and some [preference] on government contracts." http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/12/obama-wants-to-define-patriot-corporations/

Once again, people will search high and low to find the slightest imperfection in the armor known as Barack Obama.

Someone should let those people down there in Houston know that the guy on that flag was a violent and unremitting enemy of the country Obama is seeking to lead. That some of you on here are trying to defend the guy--well it says a couple of things about you: (a) either you sympathize with his cause; and/or (b) you are ignorant of his history. Che Guevara was FAR from a liberal. Don't believe your college professors! They lie too.

Don't believe your college professors! They lie too.

The whole world is lying to you! Only the USA is right! Give me a break.

Problem is, KB... they didn't have far to search. All they needed to do was look at his own people... those looking to get him elected.

TO: KB
RE: Unfortunately....

"Once again, people will search high and low to find the slightest imperfection in the armor known as Barack Obama." -- KB

....[1] It doesn't take much. And....
....[2] It's pretty d----d obvious.

So....how do you explain it all away?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Obama's campaign establishes a new standard in obfuscation, ambiguity, & equivocation.]

If any of you Obama detractors think or feel that he knew any thing about this you are reaching. There is no ways around it.

Look at my first comment, KB.

Regardless of any other factor, that these Obama supporters who hold Che so dearly, ARE in fact working feverishly to get Obama elected, would seem to suggest that THEY at least think their views about Che and the policies he called for and fought for, would find Support in an Obama White House.

I think there are some people who find that linkage disturbing. Voters, who didn't know about it... and Obama supporters, who'd rather that this connection hadn't come up... at least until after the election.

THAT'S what there's no way around.

Ok Ok. Maybe the third time will be the charm. If not, you are obviously being willfully obtuse and refuse to understand my point.

You said this:

Replace "Constitution of the United States" with "King of France" and what do you have?

Which caused my reply that there is a fundamental difference between pledging duty to a list of rules and to a monarch. I pledge loyalty to my landlord, by your definition. It is disengenuous to compare an oath to a Document to an oath to a King. The Constitution is not a monarchy, and was designed to prevent one. What is so hard to grasp exactly?

TO: KB
RE: Actually...

"If any of you Obama detractors think or feel that he knew any thing about this you are reaching. There is no ways around it." -- KB

....this isn't the only bit of evidence.

Indeed, there are two other items, I'm aware of.

[1] His refusal to wear a flag pin.
[2] His 'refusal' to salute while they were playing the national anthem.

There's a pattern of behavior developing that could hold up in a court of law, vis-a-vis a suit regarding 'prejudice'.

But you might be correct. However, I've still not seen any official pronouncement of his repudiation of these workers and their pro-Che banners.

Have you seen anything like that? I mean beyond, 'those are not people on my payroll'?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times in enemy action. -- Auric Goldfinger]

This is not even real news. Probably only FoxNews will give it much coverage...

But honestly, anyone who thinks Obama wants to (or even has the ability to) transform an entire government (like Bush tried to) are sad.

"Oh no...Commie Obama is gonna sell us to the Soviets!"

Please...that's like me saying that the "volunteer" in question was an infiltrated Hillary supporting rat....a delusion.

TO: Tom in Texas
RE: The 'Hard' Part?

"The Constitution is not a monarchy, and was designed to prevent one. What is so hard to grasp exactly?" -- Tom in Texas

Your inability to grasp that duty and loyalty are intertwined.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[For additional information, please re-read the message above.]

I strongly suggest that Obama makes an official statement and distance himself from Che and the Cuban Flag as quickly as possible. This scandal has real legs especially among the Cuban population in Florida. I have enough friends of Cuban background to know that both Castro and Che are, with good reason, hated. Florida is one of the must carry states for November. And the Cuban population is very strong there.

This is the first crack I've seen in Obama's organization. And it is a major crack. Even volunteers should know how the office is to be decorated and should have enough sense to put up posters of Obama and the American Flag.

James,
They "imply", you "infer". It is not up to you to attempt to ascertain what you infer is more accurate than what they "imply", since, well, they are the most pertinent people on the planet into the insights of what THEY mean.

If they say they aren't implying, then your inference is incorrect.

The same can be said about people who hold the flag of the Confederate States of America in such high regard. So can I assume that since the KKK uses that particular flag, which by the way flies at a capitol building, might want their ideas supported in the White House as well? Do I feel the US government is condoning the KKK thoughts and actions? No I do not but you can not control what someone is feeling or thinking.

TO: Carlos
RE: Stop Me, If....

"But honestly, anyone who thinks Obama wants to (or even has the ability to) transform an entire government (like Bush tried to) are sad." -- Carlos

...you've heard this one before....

Littel strokes fell great oaks.

Hope that helps....but I have my doubts....

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[There is none so blind as he who will not see.]

Harry:

Estimates are that forty million were killed under Stalin alone. Here are some sources to consider. Krushchev Remembers. Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: A Reassessment. Also, The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine

Again you are blaming communists for famine. Strangely social-political systems don't control things like drought and permafrost. When you are reduced to blaming the weather on communists you've long since lost the argument

The cultural Revolution and related famines where millions died. Jerome Chen, Mao and the Chinese Revolution. Ross Terrill, Mao. The Idea that the chinese Communists are responsible for only a million and a half people dying is laughable.

Reread what I wrote. The cultural revolution supposedly killed 1.5 million. The earlier "real" revolution killed something like 2-5 million. Hell, let's call it 10 million for Mao. That's certainly quite the butcher's bill, but it doesn't even remotely compare to the big leagues. Again the black plague killed 75 million at a time when the world population was substantially smaller.

Don't blame me, you're the one claiming communism killed more than any other source.
(BTW malaria, despite the availability of treatments now, kills between 1 and 2 million every year)

drip, drip, drip...

TO: KB
RE: KKK & Confederate Flags

"Do I feel the US government is condoning the KKK thoughts and actions? No I do not but you can not control what someone is feeling or thinking." -- KB

The KKK mis-appropriated that flag; courtesy of General Bedford Forrest.

As for implying that the US government accepts it, as it flies over some state capital, has got to be one of the most stupid thinks I've read in a LONG time.

Better read Bruce Catton's account of the Civil War, as it is obvious your education in American Civics has failed you.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Education: Replacing an empty mind with an open one.]

TO: Tlaloc
RE: Try....

"(BTW malaria, despite the availability of treatments now, kills between 1 and 2 million every year)" -- Tlaloc

...not to be too obtuse.

It makes you look....'silly'.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The territory behind rhetoric is too often mined with equivocation.]

As for implying that the US government accepts it, as it flies over some state capital, has got to be one of the most stupid thinks I've read in a LONG time.

Explain again how exactly Obama is a secret IslamoCommie because an unpaid volunteer has a Che flag that he never knew existed, but the federal government isn't responsible for the actions of individual states within that it IS aware of.

Please note that I agree with your point in regards to South Carolina. In the interest of consistency, you may want to revise your list of allowed flags.

Put another way:

As for implying that the US government Barack Obama accepts it, as it flies over some state capital volunteer's office, has got to be one of the most stupid thinks I've read in a LONG time.

Val Prieto:

Taking that loyalty oath is, for most if not all that do, by far one of the proudest moments in our lives.

Honestly, and no personal offense, but that's very sad.

And will someone please tell me how many people one man has to kill before he is considered a mass murderer?

3 I think. But what you are suggesting is that a person who kills three is equal to one who kills millions...which is actually kind of stalin-esque, now that I think about it. :)

he Guevara was a self-proclaimed enemy of the United States of America

And?
Given the way the US treated communists I'm hardly surprised. Nor am I particularly offended. Martin Luther King was an enemy of the state too. Just goes to show you that being an enemy of the US government is not by and of itself a bad thing- because often the US government is quite simply wrong.

(this is not to equate King and Che by any means, merely to point out how ridiculous the "enemy-of-the-state two minutes of hate is")

I suppose those who have no issue with the Butcher's of la Cabaña's image anywhere would think differently, had it been your father or your brother or your grandfather whose life had been taken by Che Guevara.

What if our fathers or brothers were killed during the US backed Bay of Pigs invasion? Are we then right to irrationally blame the various cuban exile groups (who pushed for such measures)for anything and everything regardless of facts?

Maybe at some point reason should triumph over emotion.

Just consider it...

The whole world is lying to you! Only the USA is right! Give me a break.

Shot at and missed (though it was hardly exhilarating).

TO: Tom in Texas
RE: CHEnging....

"Explain again how exactly Obama is a secret IslamoCommie because an unpaid volunteer has a Che flag that he never knew existed, but the federal government isn't responsible for the actions of individual states within that it IS aware of." -- Tom in Texas

...the subject here, Tom?

"Please note that I agree with your point in regards to South Carolina. In the interest of consistency, you may want to revise your list of allowed flags." -- Tom in Texas

You and Obama and his 'staffers'/volunteers can fly any fool flag you want.

But they shouldn't be surprised if someone takes exception to it, and with good reason. Especially if they're running for public office.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The second office in the government is honorable and easy; the first is but a splendid misery. -- Thomas Jefferson]