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	<title>Comments on: A BIBLICAL WORLDVIEW IN A MODERN WORLD</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10587</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10587</guid>
		<description>Hey James, 

Good post, except I think you are missing the point on one of the beliefs. 

***But very few Christians and, indeed, few American Jews, actually practice most of the teachings of the Old Testament (the rigorous dietary rules being just one example). Virtually none of them believe the world was literally created in six days or that Eve was made from Adam&#039;s rib, for example. They tend to treat these sort of things as allegorical rather than literally true.***

The belief is that the Bible is &quot;accurate in all of its teachings.&quot; This is not a claim that it must be taken literally (for example, I&#039;m not a &quot;six day creationist&quot;) or that the OT applies to us today (the NT does away with that stuff anyway). 

The Belief is simply that when the Bible teaches something it does so accurately. Now obviously this could include everthing from strict literal fundamentalists to more generally orthodox evangelicals (like myself). But it isn&#039;t a claim that the Bible is either inerrant or that it must be interpreted literally. 

On the rest of your post, I&#039;m afraid you are probably all too accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey James, </p>
<p>Good post, except I think you are missing the point on one of the beliefs. </p>
<p>***But very few Christians and, indeed, few American Jews, actually practice most of the teachings of the Old Testament (the rigorous dietary rules being just one example). Virtually none of them believe the world was literally created in six days or that Eve was made from Adam's rib, for example. They tend to treat these sort of things as allegorical rather than literally true.***</p>
<p>The belief is that the Bible is "accurate in all of its teachings." This is not a claim that it must be taken literally (for example, I'm not a "six day creationist") or that the OT applies to us today (the NT does away with that stuff anyway). </p>
<p>The Belief is simply that when the Bible teaches something it does so accurately. Now obviously this could include everthing from strict literal fundamentalists to more generally orthodox evangelicals (like myself). But it isn't a claim that the Bible is either inerrant or that it must be interpreted literally. </p>
<p>On the rest of your post, I'm afraid you are probably all too accurate.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Sensing</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10588</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Sensing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10588</guid>
		<description>About 12 years ago author and researcher Robert Wuthnow published his study that showed that the vast majority of persons who described themselves as Christians and churchgoers also said that their faith made little difference in the way they live their lives.

Later I read a Gallup study that revealed that only 7-10 percent of Americans described themselves as &quot;committed Christians,&quot; but that those men and women were influential in society far out of proportion to their numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About 12 years ago author and researcher Robert Wuthnow published his study that showed that the vast majority of persons who described themselves as Christians and churchgoers also said that their faith made little difference in the way they live their lives.</p>
<p>Later I read a Gallup study that revealed that only 7-10 percent of Americans described themselves as "committed Christians," but that those men and women were influential in society far out of proportion to their numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10589</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10589</guid>
		<description>Anonymous guy: I agree that it&#039;s debatable as to what constitutes &quot;teaching&quot; vs. mere allegory.  But I&#039;d argue that this is not only a parsing of words but probably doesn&#039;t make much difference with respect to my argument that people don&#039;t live their lives as if they truly believed.  Don&#039;s point is quite right, I think, and his expertise on this certainly exceeds mine.

Don: Neither of those stats would surprise me. I wonder how much of the second stat has to do with discipline versus faith itself, although the two are likely intermingled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous guy: I agree that it's debatable as to what constitutes "teaching" vs. mere allegory.  But I'd argue that this is not only a parsing of words but probably doesn't make much difference with respect to my argument that people don't live their lives as if they truly believed.  Don's point is quite right, I think, and his expertise on this certainly exceeds mine.</p>
<p>Don: Neither of those stats would surprise me. I wonder how much of the second stat has to do with discipline versus faith itself, although the two are likely intermingled.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Carter</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10590</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10590</guid>
		<description>Oops...sorry about that James. I&#039;m &quot;anonymous guy.&quot;

Your right, of course. As G. K. Chesterton said, &quot;Christianity has not so much been tried and found wanting, as it has been found difficult and left untried.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops...sorry about that James. I'm "anonymous guy."</p>
<p>Your right, of course. As G. K. Chesterton said, "Christianity has not so much been tried and found wanting, as it has been found difficult and left untried."</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10591</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10591</guid>
		<description>JC: No prob. And yep on Chesterton.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC: No prob. And yep on Chesterton.</p>
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		<title>By: Mac Swift</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10592</link>
		<dc:creator>Mac Swift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10592</guid>
		<description>This actually consistent with the Bible&#039;s own numbers on how many people within the Christian community will actually be the real deal.

Isaiah 29:13  Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This actually consistent with the Bible's own numbers on how many people within the Christian community will actually be the real deal.</p>
<p>Isaiah 29:13  Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10593</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10593</guid>
		<description>hmmm You are starting to sound like Howard Dean when he said homosexuality can not be a sin because God created homosexuals so therefor homosexuality was not a sin. (I guess by extension murder is not a sin since God creates murders right?)

But to the point, the people who believe the above tenants also believe God gave us free will. With free will comes responsibility for our actions. 

Further, simply because people do something they believe is wrong does not mean they believe it to be right. If you believe that you have never spent time with children. ;-)

It is quite possible to believe what you are doing is wrong yet do it anyway. There&#039;s that free will thing again.

Paul

BTW sorry for comparing you to Howard Dean- Yer not gonna ban me are ya? LOL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmmm You are starting to sound like Howard Dean when he said homosexuality can not be a sin because God created homosexuals so therefor homosexuality was not a sin. (I guess by extension murder is not a sin since God creates murders right?)</p>
<p>But to the point, the people who believe the above tenants also believe God gave us free will. With free will comes responsibility for our actions. </p>
<p>Further, simply because people do something they believe is wrong does not mean they believe it to be right. If you believe that you have never spent time with children. ;-)</p>
<p>It is quite possible to believe what you are doing is wrong yet do it anyway. There's that free will thing again.</p>
<p>Paul</p>
<p>BTW sorry for comparing you to Howard Dean- Yer not gonna ban me are ya? LOL</p>
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		<title>By: Meezer</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10594</link>
		<dc:creator>Meezer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10594</guid>
		<description>Most people would probably not have pre-marital sex with their mother in the room but how many have sex knowing their mother disaproves and *will probably find out about it*?
The problem with God and faith is not that many Christians do not really believe, it&#039;s that the confrontation is put off by a lifetime (and when you&#039;re young you won&#039;t die anyway).
People procrastinate, or even &quot;disobey&quot; every day  with their jobs, knowing they will have to pay the piper at some point. Yet they do it anyway. For most people whether their boss in fact exists is not a matter of faith.
I also think that even Christians are beginning to believe in C.S. Lewis&#039;s &quot;Grandfather in Heaven&quot; and think they&#039;ll be let off the hook when it really comes down to it, because they&#039;re basically good people, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most people would probably not have pre-marital sex with their mother in the room but how many have sex knowing their mother disaproves and *will probably find out about it*?<br />
The problem with God and faith is not that many Christians do not really believe, it's that the confrontation is put off by a lifetime (and when you're young you won't die anyway).<br />
People procrastinate, or even "disobey" every day  with their jobs, knowing they will have to pay the piper at some point. Yet they do it anyway. For most people whether their boss in fact exists is not a matter of faith.<br />
I also think that even Christians are beginning to believe in C.S. Lewis's "Grandfather in Heaven" and think they'll be let off the hook when it really comes down to it, because they're basically good people, right?</p>
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		<title>By: craig henry</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10595</link>
		<dc:creator>craig henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10595</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure modernity creates a completely non-mystical mind-set.  Just as there are cafeteria Christians, so there are cafeteria rationalists.  Note how many thoroughly modern people hold &quot;New Age&quot; beliefs about crystals, reincarnation, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm not sure modernity creates a completely non-mystical mind-set.  Just as there are cafeteria Christians, so there are cafeteria rationalists.  Note how many thoroughly modern people hold "New Age" beliefs about crystals, reincarnation, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10596</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10596</guid>
		<description>Paul:  You&#039;re safe for now--but watch it!  

Paul and Meezer:  My argument is that most Christians profess to believe in a Holy Spirit/Ghost--a literally omnipresent God.  So, it&#039;s not just that they think God will find out about their sins but that he&#039;s literally in the room watching them.  But, unlike a similar belief about their mother, boss, or other corporeal being, they don&#039;t really ACT as if they believe it, which I submit means they don&#039;t REALLY believe it.

Craig: Certainly true.  I think people need &quot;something&quot; to believe in.  We&#039;re rational beings but we have a spiritual side as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul:  You're safe for now--but watch it!  </p>
<p>Paul and Meezer:  My argument is that most Christians profess to believe in a Holy Spirit/Ghost--a literally omnipresent God.  So, it's not just that they think God will find out about their sins but that he's literally in the room watching them.  But, unlike a similar belief about their mother, boss, or other corporeal being, they don't really ACT as if they believe it, which I submit means they don't REALLY believe it.</p>
<p>Craig: Certainly true.  I think people need "something" to believe in.  We're rational beings but we have a spiritual side as well.</p>
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		<title>By: jen</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10597</link>
		<dc:creator>jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10597</guid>
		<description>James,

You said, &quot;...people don&#039;t live their lives as if they truly believed.&quot;

That&#039;s all too true. I readily admit that I often fail. And not to make excuses, but it&#039;s because I&#039;m still human, still prone to sin, to make unwise and selfish decisions. The whole point of the Gospel message is that God loves me despite of my sin and through Jesus Christ I&#039;m forgiven of it. And yes, I&#039;m called to live a holy life and I desire to live that holy life. But I&#039;m not God. I&#039;m not Jesus. I&#039;m just me and I make mistakes.

What difficult for Christians is that those who don&#039;t profess the same faith set us up on pedestals that we can&#039;t live up to.

You also said, &quot;So, it&#039;s not just that they think God will find out about their sins but that he&#039;s literally in the room watching them. But, unlike a similar belief about their mother, boss, or other corporeal being, they don&#039;t really ACT as if they believe it, which I submit means they don&#039;t REALLY believe it.&quot;

That may be true for some who profess to be Christians. I know that I am constantly aware that God is watching me. I believe in God&#039;s omnipresence wholeheartedly. And yet I still willfully disobey at times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>You said, "...people don't live their lives as if they truly believed."</p>
<p>That's all too true. I readily admit that I often fail. And not to make excuses, but it's because I'm still human, still prone to sin, to make unwise and selfish decisions. The whole point of the Gospel message is that God loves me despite of my sin and through Jesus Christ I'm forgiven of it. And yes, I'm called to live a holy life and I desire to live that holy life. But I'm not God. I'm not Jesus. I'm just me and I make mistakes.</p>
<p>What difficult for Christians is that those who don't profess the same faith set us up on pedestals that we can't live up to.</p>
<p>You also said, "So, it's not just that they think God will find out about their sins but that he's literally in the room watching them. But, unlike a similar belief about their mother, boss, or other corporeal being, they don't really ACT as if they believe it, which I submit means they don't REALLY believe it."</p>
<p>That may be true for some who profess to be Christians. I know that I am constantly aware that God is watching me. I believe in God's omnipresence wholeheartedly. And yet I still willfully disobey at times.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10598</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10598</guid>
		<description>Jen,

Interesting point.  It&#039;s just hard for me to square the fact that people who wouldn&#039;t willfully disobey if their boss, mother, or whoever were in the room WILL when someone they believe omnipotent is in the room.  It seems to me that the difference is that they really believe what they see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jen,</p>
<p>Interesting point.  It's just hard for me to square the fact that people who wouldn't willfully disobey if their boss, mother, or whoever were in the room WILL when someone they believe omnipotent is in the room.  It seems to me that the difference is that they really believe what they see.</p>
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		<title>By: jen</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10599</link>
		<dc:creator>jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10599</guid>
		<description>James,

It&#039;s not a matter of belief really. It&#039;s a matter of what&#039;s physically in front of you. I think you&#039;re putting an unreasonable expectation on those of us who believe in the omnipresence of God and yet fail to act with circumspection every minute of every day. It&#039;s primarily still a matter of our sinfulness - truth is that there are times when I consciously make the decision to disobey His commands, readily acknowledging that He&#039;s there. I&#039;m even bold enough to ask for His forgiveness while I&#039;m doing whatever it is. It may seem contradictory, that&#039;s because it is.

The apostle Paul explains is perfectly in Romans 7:7-25. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&amp;passage=romans+7%3A14-25&amp;version=NIV&quot;&gt;Verses 14-25&lt;/a&gt; sum it up:

&lt;i&gt;We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God&#039;s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God&#039;s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.&lt;/i&gt; 

And there are plenty of people who do willfully disobey bosses, parents, etc. when they&#039;re in the room. All children do it, all the time. How many times did your mother tell you not to touch something and you persisted in touching it anyway, while she was looking right at you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>It's not a matter of belief really. It's a matter of what's physically in front of you. I think you're putting an unreasonable expectation on those of us who believe in the omnipresence of God and yet fail to act with circumspection every minute of every day. It's primarily still a matter of our sinfulness - truth is that there are times when I consciously make the decision to disobey His commands, readily acknowledging that He's there. I'm even bold enough to ask for His forgiveness while I'm doing whatever it is. It may seem contradictory, that's because it is.</p>
<p>The apostle Paul explains is perfectly in Romans 7:7-25. <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&#038;passage=romans+7%3A14-25&#038;version=NIV">Verses 14-25</a> sum it up:</p>
<p><i>We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.</i></p>
<p><i>So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!<br />
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.</i> </p>
<p>And there are plenty of people who do willfully disobey bosses, parents, etc. when they're in the room. All children do it, all the time. How many times did your mother tell you not to touch something and you persisted in touching it anyway, while she was looking right at you?</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10600</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10600</guid>
		<description>Jen:  &lt;i&gt;It&#039;s not a matter of belief really. It&#039;s a matter of what&#039;s physically in front of you. I think you&#039;re putting an unreasonable expectation on those of us who believe in the omnipresence of God and yet fail to act with circumspection every minute of every day.&lt;/i&gt; Maybe so. It still seems like a different level/type of belief, then, than that we have of things we actually see.

And the child example is an interesting one. But adults are much less likely to act that way, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jen:  <i>It's not a matter of belief really. It's a matter of what's physically in front of you. I think you're putting an unreasonable expectation on those of us who believe in the omnipresence of God and yet fail to act with circumspection every minute of every day.</i> Maybe so. It still seems like a different level/type of belief, then, than that we have of things we actually see.</p>
<p>And the child example is an interesting one. But adults are much less likely to act that way, no?</p>
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		<title>By: jen</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/a_biblical_worldview_in_a_modern_world/comment-page-1/#comment-10601</link>
		<dc:creator>jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=4645#comment-10601</guid>
		<description>Who says? In God&#039;s eyes we&#039;re still children, right?

What about the countless people who persist in robbing banks despite the security cameras? Sure, they&#039;re idiots on some level, but they know the camera is there.

The reality is that we do what we know is wrong, period. No matter who&#039;s watching...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who says? In God's eyes we're still children, right?</p>
<p>What about the countless people who persist in robbing banks despite the security cameras? Sure, they're idiots on some level, but they know the camera is there.</p>
<p>The reality is that we do what we know is wrong, period. No matter who's watching...</p>
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