It's not so much about the "if you haven’t served, you can’t talk tough" argument as it is that the military records of Kerry and Murtha are being impugned by people who never served.

This.

When someone who never deigned to serve actively impugns the record of decorated combat veterans, viz., "gamed the system for medals," that's offensive, not to mention the hypocrisy, given contemporary conservatives' oft-professed love for the troops.

So again, Eric, I'm interested in your history of military service.

You've labeled your own position as ineffective when you try that one. Sorry, no sale.

I'm very interested in hearing about your own military service.

I think talking tough on blogs is about all there is.

Bit has a long track record of trashing serving military members and vets when it is politically expedient to do so. Reference his recent remarks about Lt. Choi as one example.

It is hardly surprising that you would favorably quote a torture apologist as you are one yourself...here's a little newsflash for you, though...criticizing the use of torture and talking of closing Gitmo are certainly not "targeting" the troops, better luck next time...

I question the value of 'service' of someone whose focus was gaming the medal system for the benefit of his own political career, and yet someone who was so dedicated to the anti-war efforts that he tossed someone else's medals over the White House fence.

Eric,

I'm very interested in hearing about your own military service.

http://rightwingnews.com/mt331/2008/05/liberals_vs_the_troops_in_quot.php

I don't think so.Let's take a recent example... Obama's Cairo Hind-Lick, this monring.

Marc Thiessen at The Corner:

He said he is committed to helping Iraqis stand on their own. But he failed to mention that they have that opportunity because of the blood spilled by American troops who sacrificed to give them their freedom. He failed to mention that from Iraq and Afghanistan, to Bosnia, Kosovo, and Kuwait, over the past two decades our military has done more to free Muslims from oppression than any power in history. In fact, there was not one word of praise for our troops and what they have done for the people of the Middle East in the entire address.

To the contrary, he threw the men and women of our military and our intelligence community under the bus when he declared, in front of a Muslim audience, that the attacks of 9/11 “led us to act contrary to our ideals.” On foreign soil, he accused our intelligence professionals who stopped the next 9/11 of committing torture — validating years of al-Qaeda propaganda. He talked about closing GTMO without any defense of the good men and women who run it — even though his own attorney general, Eric Holder, has admitted it was a model prison. If he was going to discuss these topics in the Middle East, he at least owed it to our troops and intelligence professionals to say what dozens of investigations have proven: that there was no systematic abuse of detainees at GTMO or anywhere else. Instead, Obama echoed al-Qaeda’s calumnies against them — and did so in a foreign land. This is unprecedented. It is shameful. And they deserve better.

In short, more of the same pattern. All you've come up with to counter it is baseless insult, AIP. Let's see if you can come up with something more substantial. I doubt you can.

frankly, neither of the two cases under discussions strikes me as coming from someone who is overtly 'pro-soldier'.

Wayne points this stuff up fairly well.
The fact is in both cases, the screaming was for leftie political points, and really didn't give a damn about the truth. In fact, as stuff came out about both situations, they specifically tried to avoid the truth so as to avoid the consequences of their back-stabbing.

We're still waiting for the apology from Murtha, for example.

You have Jack Murtha who was willing to make false and outlandish accusations against our servicemen. You have many who are quick to take any isolated incident and play it up to hurt the military often implying the isolated incident is system wide. John Kerry repeating many of the lies as his own experience until he was cornered on it then it was “will that what I heard” excuse. It reminds me of those who claim to support their home team but constantly taking potshots at them and take pleasure when their home team loses.

Try going to some of the “hippies” hangout in Seattle or the anti-war protest\concerts and listen to them. If you are daring enough tell them you are military which is OK if you support them and you support the war and see how they treat you. Baby killer and warmongers are still popular phrases used.

So, calling soldiers 'murderers' as he did while making a name for himself in anti-vietnam war 'testimony' before congress, while halfway wearing his uniform, is pro-soldier?

I'm not a fan of what Kerry did at Winter Soldier. Some of it was clearly embellished. But his argument was that immoral goals and policies was making soldiers do horrible things. Some, in fact, were.

(And I'll hasten to add that the pattern there, given Murtha, seems fairly well-established)

Murtha retired as a full colonel of Marines. The early evidence, obtained by the Marine Corps' own investigations -- which is what Murtha was relying on -- pointed to a massacre at Haditha. Later investigations made the facts much murkier.

The man's got a Silver Star, which is more than either of us earned

That he's got one, is beyond issue. How he got it, isn't, particularly given the clues given by his behavior subsequently.

And he's never been anti-soldier even when he's been anti-war.

So, calling soldiers 'murderers' as he did while making a name for himself in anti-vietnam war 'testimony' before congress, while halfway wearing his uniform, is pro-soldier? (And I'll hasten to add that the pattern there, given Murtha, seems fairly well-established)

As I've done before, I question the value of 'service' of someone whose focus was gaming the medal system for the benefit of his own political career, and yet someone who was so dedicated to the anti-war efforts that he tossed someone else's medals over the White House fence.

The man's got a Silver Star, which is more than either of us earned. And he's never been anti-soldier even when he's been anti-war.

You also list some who inarguably served the military dishonorably.

Who? Many of them served with distinction. Others simply served.