It's downright amusing that even after Steve baits you on the point you still haven't looked at Balko's report. He doesn't mean the blog. Balko goes on at length about how departments don't keep formal count of their stats but some department heads will estimate botch rates at 10% and more and freedom of information inquiries by newspapers have confirmed similar rates in some locales.

And DaveD said

I mean these aren�t neighborhood uniforms knocking on the front door just following up on a disturbance of the peace complaint. This is a SWAT raid!!!

but I think the problem is that these ARE neighborhood uniforms, problem is they are all dressed up in ninja gear without appropriate training. Balko even records a case where the SWAT team WAS sent on a noise complaint.

Anyway my reservation about Balko's report is that while there are some statistics mixed in it is largely based on anecdote. Even "hundreds" of stories across multiple years only adds up to a couple in each state each year. Not that that makes the problem any less serious, just not endemic.

If any other citizen in the course of performing their job duties (plumber, delivery driver, engineer, carpenter, etc)made the same type of mistakes Balko documents with the same results (dead people and damaged property) they would face massive civil and crimminal liability.

However, when the police don't do their job correctly people like bithead and fersboo are willing to let them get away with mistakes and incompetence that would put any other citizen in jail.

The liberal media, of course. Disregard at will. Inserting fingers in ears and chanting "la la la" is effective, as is continuous FoxNews viewing.

Incidentally, guys like Steve V. who can dissent from the party line are much more persuasive advocates for conservative values than are those who never saw a cop raid they didn't like.

Bwahahahaha. Another person who hasn�t read the report. I dare you Bithead to go out and find any law enforcement jurisdiction that keeps track of its botched SWAT raids.

So how is it they end up in Balko's blog all the time? SOMEONE clearly is recording them.

But fine... let's go based on what we know... and let's situlate that Balko's doing a fair job of collecting these things. Let's pit Balko's reports up against the reports of successful raids. What I'm after here is some kind of judgement on a failure rate. Seems a reasonable request.

Care to try?

I understand your and Radleyâ??s point, but wonder if maybe the histronics are a bit much. It is a jungle out there and sometimes innocents get hurt.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought we were living in a civilized country with the rule of law, but now I see: It's a jungle therefore paramilitary police raids, often on non-violent offenders, are justified.

Thanks.

I believe that law enforcement that errs when doing its work should be reprimanded or terminated, depending on the severity of their error, and that their jurisdictions are liable for damages.

Whats the problem, that is what I want too, but that is very, very far from the truth. Tell you what, you go out and find one single example of a SWAT raid gone wrong where the police officers were terminated from their jobs.

However, I believe that these effective tools (and they are effective and law enforcement is defensive because their jobs will be made more difficult to impossible to perform) protect many more innocent lifes, both civilian and law enforcement, than they possible damage or end.

You haven't read the report have you? Be honest, because by the above the answer can only be, "No." Balko points out that the "effectiveness" of these raids is highly dubious in terms of securing arrests.

I would be curious to your position on capital punishment.

and

And I would as well.

Your plea for a strawman here is noted, and rejected.

Iâ??d also be intereted in knowing what kind of percentages weâ??re dealing with hereâ?¦ how many such raids go according to plan vs how many go wrong.

Bwahahahaha. Another person who hasn't read the report. I dare you Bithead to go out and find any law enforcement jurisdiction that keeps track of its botched SWAT raids. Balko's numbers are a lower bound, and the likely number is actually much higher.

But, am I to understand that dead innocents is an acceptable price...even with slight improvements in policing procedures can prevent such deaths?

Granted that one is too many, but are we demanding perfection?

No, but why settle for gross incompetence?

I support Steveâ??s position. I donâ??t think he is condemning the method.

Finally! Yes, SWAT does have a purpose, but serving a drug warrant on a non-violent recreational user sure as heck isn't it. Is that what SWAT officers joined the unit for...to bust the 19 year old college drop out/surfer who is lighting up a fat one on a Saturday evening? My God, it is a jungle out there!

The cops got a lead, they show up at an address and there are two domiciles. If they are at this point surprised/confused by what they have discovered about their target then they have very obviously not prepared adequately for a SWAT raid.

Just wanted to repeat this because it captures the point perfectly.

The problem is the "good people" cops actively obstruct any attempts to hold the "gun crazed cowboy" cops accountable. So when it comes to police abuse of authority, they're just as much a part of the problem as the actual perpetrators.

I'd also be intereted in knowing what kind of percentages we're dealing with here... how many such raids go according to plan vs how many go wrong.

Granted that one is too many, but are we demanding perfection?

I understand your and Radley's point, but wonder if maybe the histronics are a bit much. It is a jungle out there and sometimes innocents get hurt. I believe that law enforcement that errs when doing its work should be reprimanded or terminated, depending on the severity of their error, and that their jurisdictions are liable for damages. However, I believe that these effective tools (and they are effective and law enforcement is defensive because their jobs will be made more difficult to impossible to perform) protect many more innocent lifes, both civilian and law enforcement, than they possible damage or end.

I would be curious to your position on capital punishment.