"My recruiter told me that I wouldn't be sent to Iraq, but then he really can't promise that, can he? It's not being killed that I worry about though, it's killing someone else. I don't know how I'd be able to live with someone else's blood on my hands. I don't know if I'll be able to get into college now, but I'll certainly try".

I believe what he said as well. I believe that a human life is a precious thing and that no man has the right to take that away. Not Bin Laden, not Saddam, and most certainly not our own goddamn president. I think too often that we forget that we're fighting people in a war. Not "targets", not "bogeys", people. People who are mostly pissed off because we bombed their country to hell to steal their national resources. Maybe it was their brother we killed, maybe their son, or daughter, or maybe we blew up their house. There's one more quote I'd like to share. A vet opposing the war told me something he heard from a civilian who was hired for $5 an hour to help restore the electricity in Baghdad.

"Before the invasion, I had no problems with Saddam. I knew he was a terrible man, but he didn't affect my family in particular. I had a house, a good job, and my children went to a good school. Now my house is destroyed, one of my sons is dead, and the only way for me to support what's left of my family is to work for $5 a day fixing what you broke!"

John

So your point is that we can have our freedom of speech as long as we don't want to use it? Screw you, buddy. And as far as calling me a traitor, say it to my face and see how quickly this liberal veteran disproves your theories about all anti-war folks being completely non-violent.

I spent 10 years in the Army, 7 of those in the Infantry, earning the right to say whatever the hell I want about whoever the hell I want. You guys that want everyone to march lockstep with this administration no matter what they do are at the top of my list.

Question for you Herb: Just what are we supposed to do when our government does something that we disagree with? Sit and stew?

The arguments I've heard against protest and dissent are the most illogical pieces of drivel I've ever heard. We have freedom of speech, but to use it is treason? We have the responsibility to tell our leaders when they have gone astray, but when we do so, we're told that we're giving aid to the enemy?

Bullsh!t.

Now, there is a time for war. If our leadership decides to do something that is wrong and immoral, and then specifically says that he doesn't care what the people, his employers think and he's going to do whatever the hell he's going to do, then we have the obligation to let them know they're screwing up. There's no contradiction there.

I'm also going to make a comment on this BS idea that when you sign up for the military that you are signing your life away. (The "They knew what they were getting themselves into when they signed up" argument).

Kids are often duped by recruiters. I know that my recruiter straight out lied to me to get me to sign up. You see the uniform. You respect the man wearing it, and they take advantage of that fact. They do sell it as an adventure and downplay any possibility of combat. (probably not as successful with that tactic these days).

When you join the military, you do understand the possibility of seeing combat. You accept that. I accepted it. We hadn't had a large-scale military operation since Vietnam when I joined, but I knew that it was always a possibility. 8 months later, I was on the ground in Saudi Arabia with live rounds in my weapon and a serious case of tight sphincter.

But you also have the right to know that your life and blood will not be spent for any other reason than to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foriegn and domestic. That you will not be sent to die in a foreign land for false reasons. That your life will be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible. Military leaders are supposed to have the welfare of their troops at the top of their priority list. We owe our troops at least that much. THAT is supporting our troops. Screw the yellow ribbon magnets. You want to support our troops? Use them responsibly. Ask yourself the question: "Before I send these kids to die, is it for a reason that I'd be willing to lay down my own life for?" If the answer is truly 'No', then you should re-think your use of troops.

Anyone that claims that when you join the military you're signing a death warrant to be a political pawn is just crazy. Nobody would sign up for that. They sign up because they love their country. They sign up because they want to make a difference. They sign up to learn and grow through hard work and discipline. Nobody signs up because they want to die for a lie. Soldiers are still human beings and deserve to be treated with honesty, respect and goodwill. We have an obligation to them to make sure that they are not sent to die in vain. And if they are, we have an obligation to stand up and make our voices heard.

Jim
"Dissent is the Highest form of Patriotism" -Thomas Jefferson (that damned commie)

So Jim Henley, do you agree with ANSWER’s ideas and program? I am curious about the support for Kim Jung Il.

No. But ANSWER doesn't matter.

And I do believe that of the unproven “100,000” which was quoted from the organizer, that mmore than 70,000 attended the national book festival held at the same time and location.

Of course you do. But "100,000" is a number that also comes from the DC Police Chief among other people. (Some organizers were claiming 200-300,000, which seems very unlikely.) Even if the warblogger bedtime story about the book festival providing all the bodies were true, it would leave us with a ratio of something like 30,000:400. Of course, in the country as a whole, as many as one out of every three citizens is still behind the war, so the ratio is a bit skewed.

Face it, the more you align with wackos like Ramsey Clark, the more damage you do to your own side.

I mean, even Sheehan has jumped the shark with her like comment that New Orleans was occupied just like Iraq.

So Jim, hope those numbers (thenumber that actually DID attend the rally and not those who happened to be at a conference across the street) give you some degree of comfort

And I do believe that of the unproven "100,000" which was quoted from the organizer, that mmore than 70,000 attended the national book festival held at the same time and location.

So I do think that the number of anti war protestors were a lot, lot lower.

Now that you have had your opportunity to blow off a little Stearm, Your comments have shown your true colors.

You are just another Left Wing Looney Democrat that is still bitter about trying to steal the 2000 election(Led by Mayor Daily) and got caught. The result is you are just a bitter person that can't get over it. God help you. It must be a living hell to live with your hate and bitterness for the past 6 years.

Oh well, it's your own personal problem, not mine, so go on with your hate and discontent, march, continue to hand our terrorist enemies their victory's, tear down our troops and disrespect the country that has provided you the freedoms that your terrorist friends and buddies will take from you. You are sad indeed.

I don’t think invading another country under the false premise of weapons of mass destruction represents American Ideals. I really don’t. I don’t think stealing elections represent American Ideals. I don’t think employing torture is an American value. I really don’t. And I certainly don’t think screaming "traitor" or "commie" to everyone who disagrees with you (the majority of Americans, by the way) represents American Ideals. Quite the opposite: it represents dictatorship and fascism.

And I certainly don’t think sending young men and women to die in a war (invasion) based on lies (or, if you prefer...mistakes) is either being patriotic or "supporting our troops" (quite the opposite!).

But rather than trying to convince you of this, I would suggest that you walk away from the safety of your computer and enlist and fight this war yourself (unlike your beloved Bush, Chaney and Wolfowitz who did everything they could to avoid fighting)....unless, like them, you are a hypocrite and a coward. Or, are you just another old man who wants war?
And if you are, then make sure that your son or daughter is fighting in it! (Unlike Bush, Chaney and Wolfowitz and every member or congress who hasn't sent their children to fight and die).

You do have a perfect right to protest about issues that you don't agree with, but the proper place to do it is called "THE BALLOT BOX" have you ever heard of it?
And Larmee:

You say the protesters are ethical. That was a good one, but, tell me whats ethical about the protesters ranting that the terrorists are "Freedom Fighters" and whats ethical about the Anti American slogans they use in their marches. And I am so sick of you hard heads that keep talking about the WMD and that Bush lied. If that is so, then Great Britain, Europe, most Democrats and a whole bunch of UN countries also said the same thing, That Iraq Had WMD. Why don't you call them liars also instead of directing your hate to wards Bush only. You don't see signs in the protesters hands that call others that there was WMD liars. You call yourself an American, but actually you are more like a Democrat sore loser that "Just can't Get Over It.

Lastly, Why do you so called patriots realize that when you preach your Bush Hate in the form of an anti war march, you aid, abet and lend comfort to our enemy, the terrorist. They watch MSNBC, CNN, and FOX NEWS to and are loving what you are doing. That make you and your kind, TRAITORS to America. Now live with it, because some day you will regret your dumb ideals. People like you remind me of Jane Fonda, sitting by a North Vietnamese Anti Aircraft Gun singing the praises of their Commie way.

The pro war people, people like many of the Bush supporters on this board...oh, sure, they want war, as long as they don't have to anything (like fighting or dying). Bush, Chaney, Wolfowitz...the whole gang...are perfect examples. They never fought in a war, in fact they did everything they could to not fight. Oh no, they had other priorities..not that they were against the war..(say, like Clinton)..no, they just preferred to have others do the fighting and dying for them....and that about sums up the pro war people in America today....oh, they're for the war, alright, as long as some other parents' kids are doing the fighting and the dying (and as long as they don't have to pay more taxes). That's your typical war supporter in America today.

While the Anti war group is more (in my opinion) ethical...they don't believe in having wars unless they're willing to fight in them themselves or send their own children (unlike Bush, Chaney, and Wolfowitz), and they're more passionate about what they believe in. You see, they're folk who believe in peace, many of whom (though certainly not all) are Christians who take Jesus at his word when he said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love your enemy". They're not hypocrites like the pro war "Christian Right". They are folks who don't believe it's right (or American) to invade other countries based on lies (and yes, they were lies.... there were no weapons of mass destruction). Unlike those who want this war, these folks truly believe in what they preach, so much so that they're willing to make sacrifices...they're willing to ride buses to Washington DC, in from Chicago, from New Mexico..from Florida...in fact, in from all 50 states...just so as to express their disgust with Bush and his immoral (and unAmerican) agenda of invasion and occupation. You see, they really believe in what they're saying, and are willing to make sacrifices in order to be heard.

And that's exactly why there were over (now the DC police are saying) 150,000 folks in Washington to protest Bush and his war (invasion)of choice.
And that's exactly why the pro war group couldn't even muster 400 people.

1. To abdicate our responsibility to protest and dissent when we see our government doing something that it should not be is the true treason. We have the responsibility to let our leaders know when they have gone astray. They are our public servants, not our rulers. Both parties need to be reminded of this in a big way.

2. On the 'exporting freedom' argument: Freedom is not a gift to be given, but prize to be won. If the people of a country do not want it enough to rise up and take it, you're not going to be able to 'Give' it to them. Hell, the government we installed has already embezzled over $1.2BILLION! http://tinyurl.com/acbvm Those of you conservatives that are pissed off about taxes, think about your money going over to enrich corrupt Iraqi political leaders. (it's bad enough our taxes enrich political crooks in our own country, but at least we can vote them out... or should anyways).

Assistance for people attempting to win their freedom is one thing, but doing the job for them? Anyways, on that tip, we should have followed through with our promises back in 1991-2 when the Iraqis rose up, and we abandoned them. That's where the mass graves came from. Wups, our bad.

I'm a vet of the first Gulf War. I agreed with it at the time, (some things I've heard since have tempered my agreement a bit), and still think that we were quite justified in protecting an ally against an aggressive action by their neighbor. But in this case, we were the aggressor. This isn't treason, it's a fact.

We can weenie-whine technicalities like being in violation of the UN decrees, but again, Iraq was contained, the inspections were FINALLY proceeding (probably due to the threat of war, which was a good Bush move... executing after it wasn't necessary... bad move), we kinda lost any moral upper hand we had. This was compounded by the fact that Bush stated outright that he'd exhaust all diplomatic avenues before resorting to military action...then kicking the inspectors out so he could get it on before his pretense melted away completely.

Another thing that we need to keep in our minds when those who support this war bring up 9/11 and terrorism is that Iraq was not involved in terrorism prior to our invasion. That's a monster we've created.

Going after terrorists is right on. We should be doing it. Just don't try to confuse that with Iraq, because it doesn't fly.

Okay, so it turned out a bit longer than I expected. Sue me. :)

Jim

"It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted
by other things than power." -- David Brin

"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." -- Isaac Asimov

1) The staus-quo doesn't usually go out marching
2) Who wants to march for war? The pro-war crowd has never figured out a way to frame their issue to escape that label (the pro-abortion were able to frame their slogan as pro-choice despite pro-lifers attempts to frame it as pro-death).
3) Demographics favor the anti-war protests since they can draw upon those who protested the Vietnam war and the college students who just started the fall semester (notice how these protests normally don't occur during summer break?)

In regards to the old no-fly zones. People forget several things (especially those against the war):

1) The Iraqi sanctions and zones were beginning to fall apart with numerous countries (to include both France and Russia) actively trying to end them (to include most of the groups on Saturday).
2) Iraq constantly tried to shoot down one of our planes. Eventually Iraq would have been successful which would open quite a can of worms.

Remember what Confucius said:

He who knows not and knows not what he knows not is a fool, Shun him.

But then, You can always tell a kid, but you can't tell him much.