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	<title>Comments on: Anti-Bush Snobbery II</title>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23499</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23499</guid>
		<description>Oh, it isn&#039;t you, its &lt;i&gt;society&lt;/i&gt; that says women are dishonorable and dependent on others (not to mention the whining).  Come on.
I&#039;m not saying you&#039;re homophobic, and I&#039;m not saying you aren&#039;t (although your use of the word &lt;i&gt;presumably&lt;/i&gt; gives me pause).  Same goes for misogynistic and sexist.  But your choice of words is suspect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, it isn't you, its <i>society</i> that says women are dishonorable and dependent on others (not to mention the whining).  Come on.<br />
I'm not saying you're homophobic, and I'm not saying you aren't (although your use of the word <i>presumably</i> gives me pause).  Same goes for misogynistic and sexist.  But your choice of words is suspect.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Marshall</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23472</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23472</guid>
		<description>Gosh I hate how age makes letters just vanish when you type.  My sincerest apologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh I hate how age makes letters just vanish when you type.  My sincerest apologies.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Marshall</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23471</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23471</guid>
		<description>As a liberal intellectual, I would assert categorically that my distaste for Bush is directly rooted in the intellectual basis of his philosophy.  Yes, I think he has one and the &quot;cowboy&quot; label is a shorthand for it.  

I also think that the liberal cantankerousness about it is not only because is it a BAD philosophy, it is also because Bush, and the people who support him, are too lazy minded (or perhaps too politically shrewd) to state this philosophy plainly and categorically.  Nobody likes to do one&#039;s enemy&#039;s intellectual work for him.

But since, without it, we cannot rebut the charge of &quot;intellectual snobbery&quot;, I&#039;ll take it on.  The George W. Bush philosophy is as follows:


The rules of law and reason apply only to people who are not inherently evil.

&quot;Terrorists&quot; are inherently evil.

THEREFORE:  We can do anything we please and need follow no rules whatever when we deal with &quot;terrorists&quot;. 


I use quotation marks around the word &quot;terrorists&quot; because you can insert ANY noun you don&#039;t like in there and the logic remains the same:  enemy combatants, Islamofacists, baby-killers, marriage-destroyers, feminists, secular humanists, ect. ect. ect.  

The moment you deny the rule of law and reason to any group of human beings, you have potentially denied it to any or all of them.  THAT is why it is a bad philosophy.  

We are under no illusion that there aren&#039;t many Americans who think this philosophy is just fine.  There are many Americans who believe in all sorts of extraordinary things.  

But we don&#039;t think its fine.  We think it is a contemptable abandonment of basic American values.  And that is the true souce of our rancor with George W. Bush.

And then, of course, there is the actual state in which for years of his arbitrary and capricious rule has left the country....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a liberal intellectual, I would assert categorically that my distaste for Bush is directly rooted in the intellectual basis of his philosophy.  Yes, I think he has one and the "cowboy" label is a shorthand for it.  </p>
<p>I also think that the liberal cantankerousness about it is not only because is it a BAD philosophy, it is also because Bush, and the people who support him, are too lazy minded (or perhaps too politically shrewd) to state this philosophy plainly and categorically.  Nobody likes to do one's enemy's intellectual work for him.</p>
<p>But since, without it, we cannot rebut the charge of "intellectual snobbery", I'll take it on.  The George W. Bush philosophy is as follows:</p>
<p>The rules of law and reason apply only to people who are not inherently evil.</p>
<p>"Terrorists" are inherently evil.</p>
<p>THEREFORE:  We can do anything we please and need follow no rules whatever when we deal with "terrorists". </p>
<p>I use quotation marks around the word "terrorists" because you can insert ANY noun you don't like in there and the logic remains the same:  enemy combatants, Islamofacists, baby-killers, marriage-destroyers, feminists, secular humanists, ect. ect. ect.  </p>
<p>The moment you deny the rule of law and reason to any group of human beings, you have potentially denied it to any or all of them.  THAT is why it is a bad philosophy.  </p>
<p>We are under no illusion that there aren't many Americans who think this philosophy is just fine.  There are many Americans who believe in all sorts of extraordinary things.  </p>
<p>But we don't think its fine.  We think it is a contemptable abandonment of basic American values.  And that is the true souce of our rancor with George W. Bush.</p>
<p>And then, of course, there is the actual state in which for years of his arbitrary and capricious rule has left the country....</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23470</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23470</guid>
		<description>Dan: Sure.  But it&#039;s neither homophobic nor misogynistic.  Presumably, gay men can exhibit those qualities as well.  And it&#039;s undeniable that the social ideals for men&#039;s behavior and women are different.  It doesn&#039;t demean women, let alone display contempt for them, to say that a guy should be &quot;manly.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan: Sure.  But it's neither homophobic nor misogynistic.  Presumably, gay men can exhibit those qualities as well.  And it's undeniable that the social ideals for men's behavior and women are different.  It doesn't demean women, let alone display contempt for them, to say that a guy should be "manly."</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23468</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23468</guid>
		<description>Boyd-
First of all, my grip is fine, but thank you for your concern.

Look, if James had made the point that the ad was merely meant to remind everyone of the famous SNL bit, that would be one thing.  But why the gender distinction?  It is just a simple fact that qualifying something as &quot;manly&quot; is the same as saying &quot;not womanly&quot;, at least from a logical perspective.  And frankly, I&#039;ve always felt that &quot;wussy&quot; was the PG way of saying a word that ascribes to a woman&#039;s sexual organ (pussy), especially so when I accused a dude of being one.  I can&#039;t prove it, but I &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; its another gender distinction.  I would be more receptive to the argument that gender distinctions based on stereotype are less important than most people think, but I think that, in this argument, they clearly exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boyd-<br />
First of all, my grip is fine, but thank you for your concern.</p>
<p>Look, if James had made the point that the ad was merely meant to remind everyone of the famous SNL bit, that would be one thing.  But why the gender distinction?  It is just a simple fact that qualifying something as "manly" is the same as saying "not womanly", at least from a logical perspective.  And frankly, I've always felt that "wussy" was the PG way of saying a word that ascribes to a woman's sexual organ (pussy), especially so when I accused a dude of being one.  I can't prove it, but I <i>think</i> its another gender distinction.  I would be more receptive to the argument that gender distinctions based on stereotype are less important than most people think, but I think that, in this argument, they clearly exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23466</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23466</guid>
		<description>Boyd, riiiigggghhhhttt.   That&#039;s why the contrasting phrase &lt;em&gt;girly&lt;/em&gt; man was used.  So &quot;wus&quot; == &quot;girl&quot;.  And I&#039;ve never heard phrases like &quot;you throw like a girl&quot; or &quot;he cries like a girl&quot; or any of the other zillions of phrases that men use to compare wusses to girls.

I&#039;m stunned that your thought processes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boyd, riiiigggghhhhttt.   That's why the contrasting phrase <em>girly</em> man was used.  So "wus" == "girl".  And I've never heard phrases like "you throw like a girl" or "he cries like a girl" or any of the other zillions of phrases that men use to compare wusses to girls.</p>
<p>I'm stunned that your thought processes.</p>
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		<title>By: Boyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23448</link>
		<dc:creator>Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 03:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23448</guid>
		<description>Fer cryin&#039; out loud, Dan, get a grip. &quot;Manly&quot; wasn&#039;t used as a contrast to &quot;Womanly.&quot; Its actual contrast is something along the lines of &quot;wussy.&quot; It&#039;s a contrast among men, and has no contemporary reference to women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fer cryin' out loud, Dan, get a grip. "Manly" wasn't used as a contrast to "Womanly." Its actual contrast is something along the lines of "wussy." It's a contrast among men, and has no contemporary reference to women.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23446</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23446</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The &quot;girlie man&quot; schtick has nothing to do with sexual orientation or hatred of women, it&#039;s about the traditional manly values exemplified by John Wayne and Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. Self reliance. Honor. No whining.&lt;/i&gt;

While I&#039;m sure that you don&#039;t mean that women are whiny and absent of honor and self reliance, your defense of the ad reads more like an endorsement of Matt&#039;s POV on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The "girlie man" schtick has nothing to do with sexual orientation or hatred of women, it's about the traditional manly values exemplified by John Wayne and Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. Self reliance. Honor. No whining.</i></p>
<p>While I'm sure that you don't mean that women are whiny and absent of honor and self reliance, your defense of the ad reads more like an endorsement of Matt's POV on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23440</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23440</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The fact that Arnoldâs willing to use this term shows . . . . balls.&lt;/i&gt;

It shows that he&#039;s more secure in his fallibility than ... others I could name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The fact that Arnoldâs willing to use this term shows . . . . balls.</i></p>
<p>It shows that he's more secure in his fallibility than ... others I could name.</p>
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		<title>By: Attila Girl</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23439</link>
		<dc:creator>Attila Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23439</guid>
		<description>Co-opting the word &quot;queer&quot; was the idea of Christopher Isherwood, among others. He called it  &quot;verbal judo.&quot; 

The original intent of the joke was to make fun of air-headed Austrian bodybuilders. The fact that Arnold&#039;s willing to use this term shows . . . . balls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Co-opting the word "queer" was the idea of Christopher Isherwood, among others. He called it  "verbal judo." </p>
<p>The original intent of the joke was to make fun of air-headed Austrian bodybuilders. The fact that Arnold's willing to use this term shows . . . . balls.</p>
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		<title>By: capt joe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23434</link>
		<dc:creator>capt joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23434</guid>
		<description>Attila girl,

Exactly, much as the gay community co-opted the terms queer and dyke to reduce the effect of those words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Attila girl,</p>
<p>Exactly, much as the gay community co-opted the terms queer and dyke to reduce the effect of those words.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23432</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23432</guid>
		<description>Matt,

I don&#039;t deny that those are components of the term&#039;s etymology.  I just don&#039;t think that&#039;s what&#039;s behind its current use.  It was originally used on Saturday Night Live to make fun of Arnold and he&#039;s now turning it around as a joke.  But to call someone an economic girlie man isn&#039;t to imply that they&#039;re tantamount to homosexuals.

The term is homophobic and/or misogynistic in the same sense that the use of the words &quot;balls&quot; or &quot;cojones&quot; to describe courage is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>I don't deny that those are components of the term's etymology.  I just don't think that's what's behind its current use.  It was originally used on Saturday Night Live to make fun of Arnold and he's now turning it around as a joke.  But to call someone an economic girlie man isn't to imply that they're tantamount to homosexuals.</p>
<p>The term is homophobic and/or misogynistic in the same sense that the use of the words "balls" or "cojones" to describe courage is.</p>
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		<title>By: Teri</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23425</link>
		<dc:creator>Teri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23425</guid>
		<description>Matt said &quot;I seriously doubt that the high school dropout vote is so dead-set against Bush because their a bunch of snobs.&quot;

If he&#039;s going to be snotty about high school dropouts he probably shouldn&#039;t rite like one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt said "I seriously doubt that the high school dropout vote is so dead-set against Bush because their a bunch of snobs."</p>
<p>If he's going to be snotty about high school dropouts he probably shouldn't rite like one.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23423</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23423</guid>
		<description>Matt has turned off comments at his playpen after becoming extraordinarily vulgar with his own comments. So, just let him play with himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt has turned off comments at his playpen after becoming extraordinarily vulgar with his own comments. So, just let him play with himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Attila Girl</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/anti-bush_snobbery_ii/comment-page-1/#comment-23422</link>
		<dc:creator>Attila Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7402#comment-23422</guid>
		<description>For Schwarzennegger to utter the phrase &quot;girlie men&quot; shows little more than his ability to laugh along with those who make fun of him (as you&#039;ve pointed out in other posts, the Hans und Franz schtick was directed at Arnold, and everyone knew it at the time).

Arnold&#039;s co-opting of the phrase *does* imply an endorsement of traditional masculine virtues.

Women might choose to be offended by the term, arguing that little girls have their own challenges growing up, and need to show perseverence, patience, and fortitude as much as little boys do. But they&#039;d be wasting their time and thought on a joke. A joke.

And the term has *nothing* to do with homosexuality. Anyone who sees homosexuality in the phrase &quot;girlie men&quot; has a problem with homophobia himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Schwarzennegger to utter the phrase "girlie men" shows little more than his ability to laugh along with those who make fun of him (as you've pointed out in other posts, the Hans und Franz schtick was directed at Arnold, and everyone knew it at the time).</p>
<p>Arnold's co-opting of the phrase *does* imply an endorsement of traditional masculine virtues.</p>
<p>Women might choose to be offended by the term, arguing that little girls have their own challenges growing up, and need to show perseverence, patience, and fortitude as much as little boys do. But they'd be wasting their time and thought on a joke. A joke.</p>
<p>And the term has *nothing* to do with homosexuality. Anyone who sees homosexuality in the phrase "girlie men" has a problem with homophobia himself.</p>
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