Yea, big mess. A mild economic downturn and repeated warnings to bush about the seriousness of the terrorist threat that were ignored because bush was focused on tax cuts for billionaires and keeping consumers from being able to get government data about tire safety, for God's sake.

You really do operate with your eyes closed, don't you?

OK, bit, enlighten us. When in the history of the United States have we had a period of peace and prosperity? Confer with the 3 other members of the GOP that remain if you wish...

Thank you Anjin, you prove my point, however unwittingly. If you're willing to admit that point, then stop talking about peace like it was actually attainable. THere's quite a bit of implication there. Work on it for a while.

And the level of hero worship that goes on surrounding FDR, is all about whether not the policies that he implemented , and the principles upon which they are based, are in fact valid.

They are not. They never were. It is on that basis that my disrespect for the man rests. It's on the same basis... that of policy and the principles behind that policy that I also disrespect Obama, THe Peanut Farmer, Bubba, and LBJ. Clear enough?

The man is most likely ignorant of the facts

Hmmm, well he was there, and he has forgotten more about money than most people, including you, I suspect, will ever know. How many millions have you made in your lifetime? I am talking about someone who has made many times many. Some know the theory, and others know the practice...

The 'peace and prosperity' line can only be taken seriously where it actually applies.

OK, bit, enlighten us. When in the history of the United States have we had a period of peace and prosperity? Confer with the 3 other members of the GOP that remain if you wish...

given the mess the the Clintons left hebind.

Yea, big mess. A mild economic downturn and repeated warnings to bush about the seriousness of the terrorist threat that were ignored because bush was focused on tax cuts for billionaires and keeping consumers from being able to get government data about tire safety, for God's sake.

I guess you prefer the absolute train wreck Bush left us...

I e[x]pect those issues to come up every time a liberal's CinC.

Who knew that Lincoln and FDR were conservatives...

...given the mess the the Clintons left [b]e[h]ind.

Oh, then President Obama deserves a hell of a lot of leeway, considering the mess that Bush left behind...

Please. I think you know there are no absolutes. Did the world's only superpower have military deployments during what I refer to as a time of peace, including some where shots were fired? Of course it did. BTW, how many men did we lose in Kosovo? Was there some economic problems during the 8 year Clinton era, of course there were. Grow up Bit, and learn to give credit where credit is due.

Oh, I have... exactly why, you see, I called BS on your claim. I still do. The 'peace and prosperity' line can only be taken seriously where it actually applies.

And in both the cases of 'peace' and 'properity' Clinton doesn't qualify, particularly given the mess the the Clintons left hebind.

Wait... peace and prosperity? the image of Peace you're trying t o push gets clipped in the line you're referring to, sice it talk about Kosovo...a military deployment we're still not home from. Only you could miss that one, Anjin.

Please. I think you know there are no absolutes. Did the world's only superpower have military deployments during what I refer to as a time of peace, including some where shots were fired? Of course it did. BTW, how many men did we lose in Kosovo? Was there some economic problems during the 8 year Clinton era, of course there were. Grow up Bit, and learn to give credit where credit is due.

Has there ever, in human history, been a period of absolute peace? No. Either you are just using bogus criteria because your ideology will not allow you to give Clinton credit for his accomplishments, or you have not studied history much or well.

The reign of Antonius Pius was a very good time to be a Roman, one of the very in the long history of their civilization. Now you can argue that his preoccupation with domestic affairs left many issues unresolved out on the marches that Marcus Aurelius had to deal with, but well he was in charge, life was about as good as it ever got for the average Roman.

The bottom line is that the Clinton years were a good time for America, and for most American's. Just as the Reagan years and the Eisenhower years were. In the final analysis, that is really all you can ask of a leader. Reagan & Ike both made some big mistakes, just as Clinton did. Ike saw 3 recessions and he overthrew 2 democratically elected governments. I will still take him any day. They were all fine Presidents in my book.

Steve-Aren't you being a bit disingenuous claiming that the Depression ended so employment should have risen? At the end of this post I have a link. Look at the chart at the bottom. GDP in 1929 was $103 billion. In 1933 it was $56 billion. The economy then grew rapidly, why the Depression was considered over, but GDP did not reach $100 billion again until 1940.

No. You are ignoring how recessions are determined ot be over. You look at growth in GDP and when you have, IIRC, 3 or more consecutive quarters of growth a recession is deemed over. The idea that GDP has to surpass the previous high is not and never has been the measure.

And yes, it is quite possible for unemployment to peak after a recessions end. Unemployment/employment is a lagging indicator, not a coincident or leading indicator.

I think Presidents get too much credit and too much blame for the economy's performance. Most economists I read, quite a few, believe FDR had a mixed record on affecting the Depression.

I'd say he had no influence since it ended precisely as he became President. If you believe the above that Presidents don't have nearly the impact they often claim, then logic dictates that FDR had extremely little to no effect at all.

Outlier partisans are the ones making total negative or positive assessments IMO.

In this case it is based on your premise: Presidents get or claim to much credit in ending bad economies, coupled with the two observations that the Depression was determined to be over in March of 1933 by the organization that has been making such determinations for a very long time and that FDR took office in March of 1933.

Nothing shocking here at all.

Anjin-san,

In '32 FDR takes office....

Historical revisionism? No, FDR took office in March of 1933.

Well I know I never said he was....

You mentioned your wife's boss or some such who is supposedly an ardent Republican who claims FDR was our economic savior. The man is most likely ignorant of the facts.

I am not sure why the level of respect FDR enjoys so bothers you.

Because so many fetishize him. That comment about thanking some higher force on our knees was actually something written in the New York Times shortly after his death. Your wife's boss/co-worker.

Grandpa loved FDR until the day he died, simply because he felt Roosevelt was a great man who genuinely cared about the average man. What the heck is wrong with that?

To quote Lord Acton,

"...[P]ower tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. All great mean are almost always bad men,...."

I happen to agree with Dave Schuler that FDR was at best a statist who pursued very bizzare policies like slaughtering pigs to drive up pork prices. Paid farmers not to grow food so that produce prices would rise. All at a time when people were unemployed and securing food, let alone shelter was of great concern. He favored collectivization and subordinating the objectives of big business to the goals he set for the nation. Many of his early programs were deemed unconstitutional and in response threatened to pack the court with judges till the SCOTUS voted his way. Clearly an attempt to undermine the checks-and-balances in the Constitution.

Yea, that peace and prosperity thing really sucked...

Wait... peace and prosperity? the image of Peace you're trying t o push gets clipped in the line you're referring to, sice it talk about Kosovo...a military deployment we're still not home from. Only you could miss that one, Anjin.

Properity? The dot-com bibble? A modified CRA that pushed us into our current situation?

Yeah, right.

Funny, because I thought the Kosovo intervention was badly conceived and executed even worse.

The case against the execution is certainly arguable. I epect those issues to come up every time a liberal's CinC. The justifcations for going there, however, are unarguable, IMV.

Well, I suppose I can try an make it more plain

Drew answers that point rather nicely.

FDR is a savior we should all fall to our knees and thank is just not going to fly with me.

Well I know I never said he was, and I don't think anyone else in this thread did. I do think FDR was a great President, we have had a few, Lincoln comes to mind. He certainly was a brilliant politician. His courage and determination in dealing with his handicap is something I think just about anyone can respect.

None of this equates to "worship". I admire FDR, just like I admire John Lennon, Bruce Lee, Ghandi, or Ronald Reagan, for that matter.

I am not sure why the level of respect FDR enjoys so bothers you. My Grandfather came from a place where the poverty was so bad, 4 of his siblings did not live to the age of 10. When he was 8 he was sent down to the mines where he nearly died. He came to America with a little change in his pocket & worked for 42 years as a dry cleaner. He owned his own home & sent all his kids to college. Grandpa loved FDR until the day he died, simply because he felt Roosevelt was a great man who genuinely cared about the average man. What the heck is wrong with that?

Nothing I have ever learned (and I have done some research) leads me to conclude that Grandpa was wrong about Roosevelt.

I thought Clinton interventions in Kosovo was one of the few things he managed to get correct.

Yea, that peace and prosperity thing really sucked...

Address unemployment.

Well, I suppose I can try an make it more plain. Look at the data I posted above. in 1929 unemployment is virtually nil. In 1930, it takes off like a rocket, rapidly accelarating. In '32 FDR takes office, and unemployment peaks shortly thereafter, then begins to decline until 1937, where FDR made a serious miscalculation, hence the "Roosevelt Recession".

Unemployment did remain as a terrible problem until the war came along. FDR mitigated. to some extent, the problem that he inherited. To claim that he was gasoline on the fire is nonsense.

OK bit, now address the per-capita GDP numbers, from The Hoover years thru the FDR Era. Maybe produce some data to support your claims. Citing Sowell does not impress me all that much, I was reading him 25 years ago. Don't just cite some authority, do a little leg work and support your position. Or will you just give us a lame "I'm not playing your game"?

Our current leading contenders would be a match between Bachman and Maxine Waters.

I'd substitute Cynthia McKinney for Waters personally.

I thought Clinton interventions in Kosovo was one of the few things he managed to get correct.

Funny, because I thought the Kosovo intervention was badly conceived and executed even worse.

But fair enough. Bithead, I hereby apologize for my unfair efforts to apply pop psychology to your political views. You are neither a sociopath nor do you have the same sort of Manichean world view as a jihadist.

Steve