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	<title>Comments on: Baseball Suing Fantasy Leagues over Stats Use</title>
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		<title>By: Hearsayer &#187; Balls, Strikes, And Copyright</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82844</link>
		<dc:creator>Hearsayer &#187; Balls, Strikes, And Copyright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 18:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82844</guid>
		<description>[...] UPDATE: &#8220;While MLB has a legitimate legal case here, this is just another instance of sheer stupidity on the part of the league in managing fan relations.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] UPDATE: &#8220;While MLB has a legitimate legal case here, this is just another instance of sheer stupidity on the part of the league in managing fan relations.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bhoe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82829</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 17:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82829</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Didnâ��t MLB set an all time attendance record last year?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes.  Last year the total attendance was 74,915,268.

2004: 72,968,953
2003: 67,630,052

Baseball is doing great, money-wise and attendance-wise.

I will also argue that it is much more exciting now with the recent emphasis on &quot;small ball&quot; and pitching ala the World Champion White Sox. 

As soon as Bonds is sent out to pasture, the game will rebound even more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Didnâ��t MLB set an all time attendance record last year?</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes.  Last year the total attendance was 74,915,268.</p>
<p>2004: 72,968,953<br />
2003: 67,630,052</p>
<p>Baseball is doing great, money-wise and attendance-wise.</p>
<p>I will also argue that it is much more exciting now with the recent emphasis on "small ball" and pitching ala the World Champion White Sox. </p>
<p>As soon as Bonds is sent out to pasture, the game will rebound even more.</p>
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		<title>By: Bhoe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82828</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 17:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82828</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Bhoe, you might have some figures to show otherwise, but Iâ��m fairly confident that in the time that James and I have followed the Braves they have actually increased in value.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Dave,  Let me clarify. All of the data is from Forbes.  I was initially referring to the period between 2003-2004, where their value went from $423 mil to $374 mil.  I just found more recent figures: 2005=$382.  2006=$405.  SO they are on an upward swing in terms of valuation, but they still havent hit 2002 levels.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06mlb_baseball_valuations_charts.html?index=12


&lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ��m not sure that the selling price of franchises is an indication of much of anything other than the scarcity of the resource.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

James,  I wasn&#039;t talking about selling price.  Forbes estimates each franchise&#039;s value (in various professional sports) each year for their ranking.  They are only estimates, but I think the folks at Forbes have pretty fair--they use the team&#039;s earnings, debt and stadium deals to determine their valuation rankings.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06mlb_baseball_valuations_land.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Bhoe, you might have some figures to show otherwise, but Iâ��m fairly confident that in the time that James and I have followed the Braves they have actually increased in value.</p></blockquote>
<p>Dave,  Let me clarify. All of the data is from Forbes.  I was initially referring to the period between 2003-2004, where their value went from $423 mil to $374 mil.  I just found more recent figures: 2005=$382.  2006=$405.  SO they are on an upward swing in terms of valuation, but they still havent hit 2002 levels.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06mlb_baseball_valuations_charts.html?index=12" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06mlb_baseball_valuations_charts.html?index=12</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Iâ��m not sure that the selling price of franchises is an indication of much of anything other than the scarcity of the resource.</p></blockquote>
<p>James,  I wasn't talking about selling price.  Forbes estimates each franchise's value (in various professional sports) each year for their ranking.  They are only estimates, but I think the folks at Forbes have pretty fair--they use the team's earnings, debt and stadium deals to determine their valuation rankings.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06mlb_baseball_valuations_land.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06mlb_baseball_valuations_land.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82822</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 16:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82822</guid>
		<description>Could be on the Braves.  Leo is an excellent pitching coach but, let&#039;s face it, he had some extraordinary pitchers over the years.  The Braves have done it the right way over the years--as an organization.  Even in the days when they had the financial wherewithal to add the occasional Fred McGriff to help them catch up, they had a great farm system to enable them to trade talent without getting rid of their best prospects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could be on the Braves.  Leo is an excellent pitching coach but, let's face it, he had some extraordinary pitchers over the years.  The Braves have done it the right way over the years--as an organization.  Even in the days when they had the financial wherewithal to add the occasional Fred McGriff to help them catch up, they had a great farm system to enable them to trade talent without getting rid of their best prospects.</p>
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		<title>By: File it Under</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82819</link>
		<dc:creator>File it Under</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 16:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82819</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;MLB on drugs of their own?...&lt;/strong&gt;

As a fantasy sports junkie (I&#039;m in four different fantasy baseball leagues), I find this move ill-advised.

James Joyner:

    While MLB has a legitimate legal case here, this is just another instance of sheer stupidity on the part of the league ....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>MLB on drugs of their own?...</strong></p>
<p>As a fantasy sports junkie (I'm in four different fantasy baseball leagues), I find this move ill-advised.</p>
<p>James Joyner:</p>
<p>    While MLB has a legitimate legal case here, this is just another instance of sheer stupidity on the part of the league ....</p>
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		<title>By: ICallMasICM</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82818</link>
		<dc:creator>ICallMasICM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 16:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82818</guid>
		<description>I agree that baseball isn&#039;t followed the same way it was when we were kids and certainly not the way it was from my Dad&#039;s generation but nonetheless attendance is up both in the majors and the minors. I&#039;m just busting on you about the Braves but I don&#039;t think they&#039;ve got enough pitching to catch the Mets and Phillies. However after watching the Red Sox pound the Orioles for the 7th time this year Leo Mazzone must not be the magical wizard I thought he was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that baseball isn't followed the same way it was when we were kids and certainly not the way it was from my Dad's generation but nonetheless attendance is up both in the majors and the minors. I'm just busting on you about the Braves but I don't think they've got enough pitching to catch the Mets and Phillies. However after watching the Red Sox pound the Orioles for the 7th time this year Leo Mazzone must not be the magical wizard I thought he was.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82813</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 15:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82813</guid>
		<description>It looks like MLB does have an arguable legal case, but it makes me wonder...: There was once a time (generations ago) when anyone was free to express or make use of a fact or idea.  Then along came &quot;intellectual property&quot;, and we declared that certain people had exclusive rights to certain facts and ideas.  In wonder if we have gone too far...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like MLB does have an arguable legal case, but it makes me wonder...: There was once a time (generations ago) when anyone was free to express or make use of a fact or idea.  Then along came "intellectual property", and we declared that certain people had exclusive rights to certain facts and ideas.  In wonder if we have gone too far...</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82800</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 14:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82800</guid>
		<description>Jack: The population is growing rapidly, including a large Hispanic explosion with a cultural affinity to baseball.  Plus, the move of the Expos to DC had a huge payoff.  Still, baseball is not a sport followed by young people in the way that it used to be and football still is.

As to the Braves, they&#039;re still competitive. I&#039;m not mad at the team and still try to follow them, including getting out to some games when they visit the Nats.  The problem is that they went from something like 125 games a year on TBS to something like 50.  That takes non-regional fans out of the natural rhythm of the game.  And I don&#039;t blame the Braves&#039; owners for doing that, as it&#039;s the only way to put the money back into payroll under the current system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack: The population is growing rapidly, including a large Hispanic explosion with a cultural affinity to baseball.  Plus, the move of the Expos to DC had a huge payoff.  Still, baseball is not a sport followed by young people in the way that it used to be and football still is.</p>
<p>As to the Braves, they're still competitive. I'm not mad at the team and still try to follow them, including getting out to some games when they visit the Nats.  The problem is that they went from something like 125 games a year on TBS to something like 50.  That takes non-regional fans out of the natural rhythm of the game.  And I don't blame the Braves' owners for doing that, as it's the only way to put the money back into payroll under the current system.</p>
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		<title>By: ICallMasICM</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82798</link>
		<dc:creator>ICallMasICM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 14:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82798</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t MLB set an all time attendance record last year? I believe that the Red Sox have sold out every game for the last 4 years and will do so again for the foreseeable future. You&#039;re just crying because the Braves don&#039;t have any bullpen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn't MLB set an all time attendance record last year? I believe that the Red Sox have sold out every game for the last 4 years and will do so again for the foreseeable future. You're just crying because the Braves don't have any bullpen.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazz</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82792</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 13:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82792</guid>
		<description>Every time a major sports league takes yet another step to alienate the fans and remove any vestige of &quot;fun&quot; from the sport which they are funding (either directly through ticket and merchandise sales or indirectly through viewership of television stations carrying the games and the ad revenue that generates) they drive another nail in their own coffin. James is correct in saying that the league almost certainly has a sound *legal* case on their side, but it is insane to chase those few dollars at the expense of alienating what diminishing die-hard fans they have left who are willing to fund the venture.

In the end, it&#039;s all about the fans, and owners and atheletes need to remember that. Without the fans, the sport goes back to somebody&#039;s back yard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every time a major sports league takes yet another step to alienate the fans and remove any vestige of "fun" from the sport which they are funding (either directly through ticket and merchandise sales or indirectly through viewership of television stations carrying the games and the ad revenue that generates) they drive another nail in their own coffin. James is correct in saying that the league almost certainly has a sound *legal* case on their side, but it is insane to chase those few dollars at the expense of alienating what diminishing die-hard fans they have left who are willing to fund the venture.</p>
<p>In the end, it's all about the fans, and owners and atheletes need to remember that. Without the fans, the sport goes back to somebody's back yard.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82791</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 13:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82791</guid>
		<description>Alan:  Both.  The linked article contains substantial background. It&#039;s not a slam dunk but there is plenty of precedent for the league and Players&#039; Association owning various trademarks employed by these businesses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan:  Both.  The linked article contains substantial background. It's not a slam dunk but there is plenty of precedent for the league and Players' Association owning various trademarks employed by these businesses.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82789</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 13:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82789</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;While MLB has a legitimate legal case here...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

On what basis do you claim they have a legitimate legal case?  Based on the case law (if so, what case law?), or based on your own personal sense of what is fair?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>While MLB has a legitimate legal case here...</p></blockquote>
<p>On what basis do you claim they have a legitimate legal case?  Based on the case law (if so, what case law?), or based on your own personal sense of what is fair?</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82786</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 13:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82786</guid>
		<description>Bhoe,

I&#039;m not sure that the selling price of franchises is an indication of much of anything other than the scarcity of the resource.  Plus, you have phenomena like the virtually worthless Montreal Expos moving to DC and selling for $700 million because buying a big league sports franchise is a once in a lifetime opportunity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bhoe,</p>
<p>I'm not sure that the selling price of franchises is an indication of much of anything other than the scarcity of the resource.  Plus, you have phenomena like the virtually worthless Montreal Expos moving to DC and selling for $700 million because buying a big league sports franchise is a once in a lifetime opportunity.</p>
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		<title>By: David Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82785</link>
		<dc:creator>David Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 13:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82785</guid>
		<description>Bhoe, you might have some figures to show otherwise, but I&#039;m fairly confident that in the time that James and I have followed the Braves they have actually increased in value. I think James was referring to baseball&#039;s need to grab the casual fan, who is less likely to watch a 3.5 hour game 6 nights a week than a fast-paced 2 hour football or basketball game. That need is compromised when baseball gives the appearance that it is out of touch with its fans, as seems to be the case here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bhoe, you might have some figures to show otherwise, but I'm fairly confident that in the time that James and I have followed the Braves they have actually increased in value. I think James was referring to baseball's need to grab the casual fan, who is less likely to watch a 3.5 hour game 6 nights a week than a fast-paced 2 hour football or basketball game. That need is compromised when baseball gives the appearance that it is out of touch with its fans, as seems to be the case here.</p>
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		<title>By: Bhoe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/comment-page-1/#comment-82784</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 13:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/05/baseball_suing_fantasy_leagues_over_stats_use/#comment-82784</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Baseball, in particular, needs all the help it can get in this regard. Not only is the plague of steroids undermining the integrity of the numbers that make the game connect with a past in a way no other sport can, but the slow play over a 162 game regular season is a hard sell in a broadband world.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am not sure what you are basing this on.  

Professional sports are a business and, according to Forbes, average MLB team values have increased 15% for the second consecutive year.

Compare that to American football which only rose 12% last year and the NBA which only rose 9%.

Of course, no franchise in the world compares to Manchester United, valued at $1.3 billion.

I think your experience, James, might be more attributible to the fact that you follow the Braves and they have been one of the few franchises to actually lose valuation.  This is a problem with the Braves--not with the league as a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Baseball, in particular, needs all the help it can get in this regard. Not only is the plague of steroids undermining the integrity of the numbers that make the game connect with a past in a way no other sport can, but the slow play over a 162 game regular season is a hard sell in a broadband world.</p></blockquote>
<p>I am not sure what you are basing this on.  </p>
<p>Professional sports are a business and, according to Forbes, average MLB team values have increased 15% for the second consecutive year.</p>
<p>Compare that to American football which only rose 12% last year and the NBA which only rose 9%.</p>
<p>Of course, no franchise in the world compares to Manchester United, valued at $1.3 billion.</p>
<p>I think your experience, James, might be more attributible to the fact that you follow the Braves and they have been one of the few franchises to actually lose valuation.  This is a problem with the Braves--not with the league as a whole.</p>
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