Good luck with that strategy. We'll see if it wears as well as the Noun... Verb... POW does.

Doubt it.

“of political goals which by everyone's admission has not been achieved”

Many of the goals have been achieved including elections, forming a constitution, and many others. Just because not all goals have been achieve doesn’t mean we have failed. To apply those standards to the real world is ridiculous. By those standards a football team never wins. They may score more points but they leave the field with unaccomplished goals.

We may leave Iraq without accomplishing all of our goals but if we leave a relative stable and democratic Iraq we will have won. If we leave a Iraq that is not hostile to us we will have won.

Indeed. All the things you discuss after making this bold statement are *tactics* that were designed to support the *strategy* of political goals which by everyone's admission has not been achieved.

The tactics were a success. The strategy has failed.

As I already said some have a hard time understanding strategic success.

Go back and read some previous threads that explain what has change, a few example are a more stable Iraq, more competent and confident Iraqi military, a stable enough military situation that may allow the U.S. military to greatly reduce its forces there within the next few years. Nothing has change. Please.

Depends, really. It's much easier to understand that we're still there and nothing has changed than it is to talk about the success that hasn't changed anything. Maybe they understand tactics better, but it's difficult to figure out what actually got better when you're still there and the roaring success hasn't changed anything.

Iraq most likely would be in chaos right now with Iran being the in the most control.

If we had listened to Obama in the first place non of this would have happened in the first place - easy concept for people to get, and considering that the polls show that the overwhelming majority think the Iraq war a) wasn't worth it and b) shouldn't have been fought, I don't think you're abstract argument about what might have been will have much impact on these opinions.

people trust McCain more than Obama on such things.

Perhaps. But this supposed advantage hasn't done much for his polling. What did seem to work was hiring the same staff Bush did, so that they could start performing the same smears that McCain denounced in 2000.

Kind of sad when you have to rely on the negative and your positives don't stand up to muster, don't you think?

Biden speech pointed that discussion in that direction.

Again, we'll see. I think Biden is going to tear McCain to shreds and you're going to see whatever positives McCain has on security melt like ice on a hot stove. But that's just me. Again, we'll just have to see.

But so far, McCain has seemed to decide that he no longer wants to run on the issues and simply wants to run on smearing character and questioning patriotism and the like. Couple of months of that, combined with Biden and a lot of others ripping his throat out could do an awful, awful lot of damage to the man.

I understand your point but besides disagreeing with it most people can grasp tactical much better than strategic. Strategically if we would have pulled out back when Obama wanted to, Iraq most likely would be in chaos right now with Iran being the in the most control. Most people would consider that as the wrong strategic philosophy. It is not just the matter of pulling troops out but when we pull them out.

I’m sure we disagree on strategies but polls have shown that people trust McCain more than Obama on such things. Biden speech pointed that discussion in that direction.

But by all means keep believing that his desperate clinging to the past will save him.

"McCain: tactically correct but strategically wrong" makes a brilliant campaign theme.

I’ll watch Obama’s performance at Mile High Stadium tonight, though. I understand it’s the halftime show at a Broncos preseason game, yes?

Tsk, tsk. C'mon James or I'll be forced to characterize McCain's acceptance speech, in advance of hearing it, as his Viva McAgra speech.

THAT...i will concede...though I don't think he will make that pick. Just in case though, i'm keeping my newb protester kit at the ready.

Frankly, I don't think you can set expectations low enough. But still, quite the amazing bar y'all are setting for your party.

Just wait until old zombie takes the green screen to accept his nomination.

I think he'll do fine but expect, like everyone else, that Obama will be better. Thankfully, expectations work in McCain's favor here.

And not commenting one way or the other on last night's speeches, of which I've only heard clips thus far. Just commenting on the commenting.