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	<title>Comments on: Blogging Sells Out?</title>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24572</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Oct 2004 15:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24572</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been going 6 months and am pottering around the 1400 level at TTLB and 300-500 visits a day. Sure, I&#039;d love to be taking in money other than that same 25 cents a day via Adsense. Then I think about what I&#039;m actualy doing. I&#039;m getting to vent my frustrations with the world, to snarl at the various indignties that &quot;the system&quot; imposes upon us, draw attention to good writing elsewhere, mention the odd joke, in general, pontificate from the bar-stool in the corner of the saloon. And rather than clearing the place which is what happens when I do it in real life, I seem to have  some few hundred slightly odd souls out there who think it worthwile to drop by and read what the old git is frothing about today.
I&#039;m not sure whether that restores my faith in human nature or destroys what was left of it.
I&#039;ve also been pleasantly surprised to find that via blogging I&#039;ve been offered sufficient freelance work (I&#039;m not a media maven by trade, rather a metal trader) to equal the sort of $ numbers that JJ says he is getting here from advertising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've been going 6 months and am pottering around the 1400 level at TTLB and 300-500 visits a day. Sure, I'd love to be taking in money other than that same 25 cents a day via Adsense. Then I think about what I'm actualy doing. I'm getting to vent my frustrations with the world, to snarl at the various indignties that "the system" imposes upon us, draw attention to good writing elsewhere, mention the odd joke, in general, pontificate from the bar-stool in the corner of the saloon. And rather than clearing the place which is what happens when I do it in real life, I seem to have  some few hundred slightly odd souls out there who think it worthwile to drop by and read what the old git is frothing about today.<br />
I'm not sure whether that restores my faith in human nature or destroys what was left of it.<br />
I've also been pleasantly surprised to find that via blogging I've been offered sufficient freelance work (I'm not a media maven by trade, rather a metal trader) to equal the sort of $ numbers that JJ says he is getting here from advertising.</p>
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		<title>By: PS</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24348</link>
		<dc:creator>PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24348</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Blogging Sells Out?&lt;/strong&gt;
OTB doesn&#039;t think so. Neither do I....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Blogging Sells Out?</strong><br />
OTB doesn't think so. Neither do I....</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy C. Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24291</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy C. Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24291</guid>
		<description>While I&#039;m nowhere near the level of popularity of some folks (sitting near 800 on TTLB, and roughly 100K monthly visitors), the reminder is fantastic: I too remember when I broke 100, then 500, then 1000 daily visitors.

Each was huge for me. I must have strutted around for ages.

It&#039;s easy to forget. It&#039;s also easy to forget what the motivation is, amongst my &quot;growing up&quot; as a blogger. I worry more about traffic. Influence. Cash than I ever have before. I&#039;m not sure it affects what I post, how often I post or the quality of my posts but it&#039;s definitely a change.

But yeah, the half million blogs getting 100 visitors a day are definitely more important than the top 1000 getting 1-100K visitors/day. Because that&#039;s where the ideas start. With the masses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I'm nowhere near the level of popularity of some folks (sitting near 800 on TTLB, and roughly 100K monthly visitors), the reminder is fantastic: I too remember when I broke 100, then 500, then 1000 daily visitors.</p>
<p>Each was huge for me. I must have strutted around for ages.</p>
<p>It's easy to forget. It's also easy to forget what the motivation is, amongst my "growing up" as a blogger. I worry more about traffic. Influence. Cash than I ever have before. I'm not sure it affects what I post, how often I post or the quality of my posts but it's definitely a change.</p>
<p>But yeah, the half million blogs getting 100 visitors a day are definitely more important than the top 1000 getting 1-100K visitors/day. Because that's where the ideas start. With the masses.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24270</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24270</guid>
		<description>Trust me; it takes a while, Fiat</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trust me; it takes a while, Fiat</p>
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		<title>By: fiat lux</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24261</link>
		<dc:creator>fiat lux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24261</guid>
		<description>My blog gets about 50-70 visitors a day, usually. If I take the time to post comments at other sites and do some link whoring via trackbacks, I can get 100 visitors a day, but it&#039;s work and I&#039;m not always willing or able to spend a couple of hours a day link flogging.

Then one day Kevin Drum linked to a post on my site and I got 650 visitors in 18 hours.

I had thought I was doing pretty well, traffic wise, until then. Now I know how pathetic my traffic is and I have to say, it makes me wonder why I bother trying to have a blog that does more than help my sister in Italy keep up with my personal news. I know I&#039;m not the most insightful or the snarkiest. I don&#039;t have the specialized POV of an Orcinus or a Juan Cole. I suppose I should be grateful that I have an audience at all, and not get hung up on wanting more traffic.

But yeah, it does bug me a bit that my traffic is so pathetic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My blog gets about 50-70 visitors a day, usually. If I take the time to post comments at other sites and do some link whoring via trackbacks, I can get 100 visitors a day, but it's work and I'm not always willing or able to spend a couple of hours a day link flogging.</p>
<p>Then one day Kevin Drum linked to a post on my site and I got 650 visitors in 18 hours.</p>
<p>I had thought I was doing pretty well, traffic wise, until then. Now I know how pathetic my traffic is and I have to say, it makes me wonder why I bother trying to have a blog that does more than help my sister in Italy keep up with my personal news. I know I'm not the most insightful or the snarkiest. I don't have the specialized POV of an Orcinus or a Juan Cole. I suppose I should be grateful that I have an audience at all, and not get hung up on wanting more traffic.</p>
<p>But yeah, it does bug me a bit that my traffic is so pathetic.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24259</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24259</guid>
		<description>Dave;
I wonder how your comments mesh with Bloggers who don&#039;t really have a whole mess of control over the ads they run. 

My own situation, as an fair example; I&#039;m tied to AdSense.. I&#039;ve even seen SUPPORT JOHN KERRY ads on my own site. 

If there&#039;s a conflict, there, it&#039;s that the ads are conflicting with MY message... rather than the reverse.

And it&#039;s not like I&#039;m making piles of money... the clickthrough rate ends up making me about $0.25/month, at the moment. I&#039;m just thinking that situation will shift after the election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave;<br />
I wonder how your comments mesh with Bloggers who don't really have a whole mess of control over the ads they run. </p>
<p>My own situation, as an fair example; I'm tied to AdSense.. I've even seen SUPPORT JOHN KERRY ads on my own site. </p>
<p>If there's a conflict, there, it's that the ads are conflicting with MY message... rather than the reverse.</p>
<p>And it's not like I'm making piles of money... the clickthrough rate ends up making me about $0.25/month, at the moment. I'm just thinking that situation will shift after the election.</p>
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		<title>By: Peaktalk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24258</link>
		<dc:creator>Peaktalk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24258</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;AGGREGATING BLOGS&lt;/strong&gt;
Jeremy Wright the owner of Ensight, a blog about business and technology, has sold it for the tidy sum of $15k and a monthly fee, allowing him editorial control in return for all advertising revenue. The BusinessPundit asks if this</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>AGGREGATING BLOGS</strong><br />
Jeremy Wright the owner of Ensight, a blog about business and technology, has sold it for the tidy sum of $15k and a monthly fee, allowing him editorial control in return for all advertising revenue. The BusinessPundit asks if this</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24255</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24255</guid>
		<description>Perhaps there are differences between newspapers, TV, and radio on the one hand and the Internet in general and blogs in particular that &lt;b&gt;billmon&lt;/b&gt; and Big Media don&#039;t get.  For one thing in the old media above advertising crowds out news.  You can&#039;t fill all of Page One with both.  It&#039;s either one or the other.  The same is true of TV and radio.  Advertising or programming.  If you&#039;ve got one, there&#039;s no space for the other.

Blogs just aren&#039;t like that.

Big Media also has the problem of corporatization to contend with.  Pitch Parent&#039;s products.  Mustn&#039;t have anything &lt;i&gt;too&lt;/i&gt; controversial, must we?  Might reflect badly on Parent.  Parent&#039;s management is worried about the bottom line&#8212;time to wring out some more of the news staff.  Guess that means we won&#039;t have the resources to fact-check that story now, doesn&#039;t it?

Blogs are a &lt;i&gt;long&lt;/i&gt; way from that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps there are differences between newspapers, TV, and radio on the one hand and the Internet in general and blogs in particular that <b>billmon</b> and Big Media don't get.  For one thing in the old media above advertising crowds out news.  You can't fill all of Page One with both.  It's either one or the other.  The same is true of TV and radio.  Advertising or programming.  If you've got one, there's no space for the other.</p>
<p>Blogs just aren't like that.</p>
<p>Big Media also has the problem of corporatization to contend with.  Pitch Parent's products.  Mustn't have anything <i>too</i> controversial, must we?  Might reflect badly on Parent.  Parent's management is worried about the bottom line&mdash;time to wring out some more of the news staff.  Guess that means we won't have the resources to fact-check that story now, doesn't it?</p>
<p>Blogs are a <i>long</i> way from that point.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24254</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24254</guid>
		<description>Bithead--it certainly is all perspective.  I spend most of time in the Playful Primate category, having surged, briefly, into the low 60s, but often range back into the Large Mammal category.  However, I still feel like I haven&#039;t quite &quot;got there&quot; yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bithead--it certainly is all perspective.  I spend most of time in the Playful Primate category, having surged, briefly, into the low 60s, but often range back into the Large Mammal category.  However, I still feel like I haven't quite "got there" yet.</p>
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		<title>By: PoliBlog</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24253</link>
		<dc:creator>PoliBlog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24253</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Outside The Beltway : Blogging Sells Out?&lt;/strong&gt;
Many in the Blogosphere have been talking about yesterday&#039;s LAT piece on blogging:  Blogging Sells, and Sells Out.

James Joyner have a lengthy piece on the subject that is worthy of a read.  I concur with his basic thesis that the basic of blogging...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Outside The Beltway : Blogging Sells Out?</strong><br />
Many in the Blogosphere have been talking about yesterday's LAT piece on blogging:  Blogging Sells, and Sells Out.</p>
<p>James Joyner have a lengthy piece on the subject that is worthy of a read.  I concur with his basic thesis that the basic of blogging...</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24252</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24252</guid>
		<description>Re: Power line: true.
I gess my perspective should be taken into account; BitsBlog is listed at ttlbas being around 1900 or so down... it&#039;s been bounding as high as 1390 or so, and then back down for some weeks.

As such anyone in the &#039;hot 100&#039; would seem to MY eye to qualify as an &#039;A-lister&#039;...
 

And your comments about the amount of time it takes to set up any kind of posting vlume is certainly true-- I often find it a stuggle. And I&#039;ve come to wonder about the quality vs quantity issue, insofar as capturing readers, and keeping them coming back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Power line: true.<br />
I gess my perspective should be taken into account; BitsBlog is listed at ttlbas being around 1900 or so down... it's been bounding as high as 1390 or so, and then back down for some weeks.</p>
<p>As such anyone in the 'hot 100' would seem to MY eye to qualify as an 'A-lister'...</p>
<p>And your comments about the amount of time it takes to set up any kind of posting vlume is certainly true-- I often find it a stuggle. And I've come to wonder about the quality vs quantity issue, insofar as capturing readers, and keeping them coming back.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24250</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24250</guid>
		<description>True &#039;nuff on PowerLine.  But the blog is now at #7; it had been in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.truthlaidbear.com/showdetails.php?host=http://powerlineblog.com&quot;&gt;65-80 range&lt;/a&gt; before the RatherGate explosion. 

Overall blog traffic has exploded since I started doing this in February 2003.  Still, the number of sites that are going to get huge readership is simply limited.  If nothing else, because most people just don&#039;t have the time to create enough content on their own to get a huge daily readership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True 'nuff on PowerLine.  But the blog is now at #7; it had been in the <a href="http://www.truthlaidbear.com/showdetails.php?host=http://powerlineblog.com">65-80 range</a> before the RatherGate explosion. </p>
<p>Overall blog traffic has exploded since I started doing this in February 2003.  Still, the number of sites that are going to get huge readership is simply limited.  If nothing else, because most people just don't have the time to create enough content on their own to get a huge daily readership.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blogging_sells_out/comment-page-1/#comment-24249</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7558#comment-24249</guid>
		<description>Every action has a reaction. This mumbling about blogs in the MSM is reaction, pure and simple, and needs to be regarded as such. 

The clear implication of your first quote is that blogs because they&#039;re being &#039;domesticated&#039;... we bloggers no longer to be taken seriously. Sounds rather suspiciously like a last gasp defense against an attacker they clearly don&#039;t understand.

(Aside; I find the choice of the word  &#039;domesticated&#039; interesting...given the historically testy relationship between the bloggers and the MSM. This description was perhaps more apt than the writer knew... as such a procces generally involves the subject peeing only on the newspaper... .)

As for where the A-list is, I suppose a reasonable palce to start would be the TTLB list, at the first two or three levels of being. Which, I note with some irony ties rather neatly into Kevin Drum&#039;s comments about not noting much change in the a-listers and their output.

I must admit being a bit torn on your comments re: Power line and their popularity. while it&#039;s true, the press coverage resulting from Rathergate took Powerline&#039;s hitcounters to the next level (along with CQ, BFB, and so on) I submit that Powerline was positioned to BE noticed.... being already on or near the A-list, if you will. 

There seems a similarly between this and other &#039;sell-out&#039; complaints in the past. The over-riding theme in the objections seems to be an anger surrounding the commercial success of blogdom, at least insofar as there HAS been success. (As you point out, most aren&#039;t in it for the money...)  An underlying anger with monetary success, and the claim that such succes makes one&#039;s efforts less valid has long been a staple complaint in the arsenal of the left. (What happened to 60&#039;s and 70&#039;s rock bands that became popular? Genesis, as an example) They suppsoedly &#039;sold out&#039; as a pre-req to their success.    Sorry, I don&#039;t buy that, even when the music was demonstrably changing over the time period under discussion.

I find it hard to take such complaints about bloggers seriously... particulalry when I&#039;m not seeing even the degree of change music critics were complaining of just a short while ago... 

More particularly yet, do I find it hard to swallow when the MSM has so much to lose if the meme of &#039;success spoiling the blogger&#039; wasn&#039;t so critiical to the success of the MSM maintaining their power. 

Finally, I note with some amusement Kos&#039; comments about bloggers with ~100 HPD being....&lt;em&gt;the essence of the blogosphere -- and those guys, collectively, reach a lot more than Daily Kos does. While 100 daily visitors may seem shrimpy, it&#039;s pretty darn impressive to build an audience that size. When I hit that milestone, I remember thinking, &quot;Damn, I couldn&#039;t even fit that many people in my house!&quot; Now it&#039;s seen as a sign of failure, and that&#039;s just bullshit.&lt;/em&gt;

As someone whose blog has been at a level slightly above that for nearly a year, now, I find that to be strangely reassuring.... particularly given the numbers of things Kos and I rather stoutly disagree on. He&#039;s given so much bad advice on his blog, I can&#039;t help but wonder if I&#039;m not off base on my perception of this being a GOOD comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every action has a reaction. This mumbling about blogs in the MSM is reaction, pure and simple, and needs to be regarded as such. </p>
<p>The clear implication of your first quote is that blogs because they're being 'domesticated'... we bloggers no longer to be taken seriously. Sounds rather suspiciously like a last gasp defense against an attacker they clearly don't understand.</p>
<p>(Aside; I find the choice of the word  'domesticated' interesting...given the historically testy relationship between the bloggers and the MSM. This description was perhaps more apt than the writer knew... as such a procces generally involves the subject peeing only on the newspaper... .)</p>
<p>As for where the A-list is, I suppose a reasonable palce to start would be the TTLB list, at the first two or three levels of being. Which, I note with some irony ties rather neatly into Kevin Drum's comments about not noting much change in the a-listers and their output.</p>
<p>I must admit being a bit torn on your comments re: Power line and their popularity. while it's true, the press coverage resulting from Rathergate took Powerline's hitcounters to the next level (along with CQ, BFB, and so on) I submit that Powerline was positioned to BE noticed.... being already on or near the A-list, if you will. </p>
<p>There seems a similarly between this and other 'sell-out' complaints in the past. The over-riding theme in the objections seems to be an anger surrounding the commercial success of blogdom, at least insofar as there HAS been success. (As you point out, most aren't in it for the money...)  An underlying anger with monetary success, and the claim that such succes makes one's efforts less valid has long been a staple complaint in the arsenal of the left. (What happened to 60's and 70's rock bands that became popular? Genesis, as an example) They suppsoedly 'sold out' as a pre-req to their success.    Sorry, I don't buy that, even when the music was demonstrably changing over the time period under discussion.</p>
<p>I find it hard to take such complaints about bloggers seriously... particulalry when I'm not seeing even the degree of change music critics were complaining of just a short while ago... </p>
<p>More particularly yet, do I find it hard to swallow when the MSM has so much to lose if the meme of 'success spoiling the blogger' wasn't so critiical to the success of the MSM maintaining their power. </p>
<p>Finally, I note with some amusement Kos' comments about bloggers with ~100 HPD being....<em>the essence of the blogosphere -- and those guys, collectively, reach a lot more than Daily Kos does. While 100 daily visitors may seem shrimpy, it's pretty darn impressive to build an audience that size. When I hit that milestone, I remember thinking, "Damn, I couldn't even fit that many people in my house!" Now it's seen as a sign of failure, and that's just bullshit.</em></p>
<p>As someone whose blog has been at a level slightly above that for nearly a year, now, I find that to be strangely reassuring.... particularly given the numbers of things Kos and I rather stoutly disagree on. He's given so much bad advice on his blog, I can't help but wonder if I'm not off base on my perception of this being a GOOD comment.</p>
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