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	<title>Comments on: British Conservatives&#8217; Radical Anti-Povery Program</title>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105243</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 02:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105243</guid>
		<description>poverty has a lot more to do with the lack of commitment and vision than anything else.the lack of education is a symptom, not a cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>poverty has a lot more to do with the lack of commitment and vision than anything else.the lack of education is a symptom, not a cause.</p>
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		<title>By: Woodstock</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105107</link>
		<dc:creator>Woodstock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105107</guid>
		<description>Poverty has a lot more to do with education than anything else in my opinion (at least absolute poverty).  Improving education has a lagged effect, but it is essential to any poverty program.  There was just a great article in the Sunday Times about what&#039;s wrong with public education and how to improve the &quot;achievement gap&quot; between races and classes in the U.S.  Experimental charter schools are leading the way.

I summarized some of the key points on my blog if you are too lazy to read 9 pages on the NYT site.  http://woodstock.typepad.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poverty has a lot more to do with education than anything else in my opinion (at least absolute poverty).  Improving education has a lagged effect, but it is essential to any poverty program.  There was just a great article in the Sunday Times about what's wrong with public education and how to improve the "achievement gap" between races and classes in the U.S.  Experimental charter schools are leading the way.</p>
<p>I summarized some of the key points on my blog if you are too lazy to read 9 pages on the NYT site.  <a href="http://woodstock.typepad.com" rel="nofollow">http://woodstock.typepad.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105098</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 00:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105098</guid>
		<description>Cernig:  &quot;I must at least strive to have my government live up to my personal standards.&quot;

Not at all. I do what I do out of personal choice. Government achieves what it achieves through coercion. Therefore, I wish for government to have a very limited role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cernig:  "I must at least strive to have my government live up to my personal standards."</p>
<p>Not at all. I do what I do out of personal choice. Government achieves what it achieves through coercion. Therefore, I wish for government to have a very limited role.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnG</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105094</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 23:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105094</guid>
		<description>The reason why American conservatives reject positive freedom is that the only ways brought up to bring about this positive freedom involve taking away the negative freedoms of others.  Also, conceptually it&#039;s easier to accept that people are born with inherent rights that do not depend on others.  It&#039;s not the same thing to accept that people are born with inherent rights that force others to do something on their behalf.

Also, any time someone says &quot;at least we try&quot; or words to that effect, it usually means a really bad idea is coming.  &quot;At least we try&quot; signifies that the speaker is doing something to make themselves feel better rather than actually fixing a problem.  It&#039;s not enough to assume that doing something will improve the situation; so many disasters of socialism have gone through because people assumed that doing something was better than doing nothing, only to find out that doing something was actually making things worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why American conservatives reject positive freedom is that the only ways brought up to bring about this positive freedom involve taking away the negative freedoms of others.  Also, conceptually it's easier to accept that people are born with inherent rights that do not depend on others.  It's not the same thing to accept that people are born with inherent rights that force others to do something on their behalf.</p>
<p>Also, any time someone says "at least we try" or words to that effect, it usually means a really bad idea is coming.  "At least we try" signifies that the speaker is doing something to make themselves feel better rather than actually fixing a problem.  It's not enough to assume that doing something will improve the situation; so many disasters of socialism have gone through because people assumed that doing something was better than doing nothing, only to find out that doing something was actually making things worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105091</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105091</guid>
		<description>James,

I suppose the key concept is - how do you pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you have no boots?

You write:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Had I a magic wand, I would waive it and alleviate these conditions (except perhaps unemployment, which is necessary at the margins to enable the creative destruction that makes our economy so robust). Lacking such a device, however, it is not clear to me that government can effect a cure for these things that not worse than the disease.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Proponents of negative freedom alone leave the attempt to find such a cure right there. They fail to even try. Those who accept both positive and negative freedom counter with something akin to: &quot;Well, just because it is &quot;government&quot; doesn&#039;t mean I should leave my ethics and/or religious convictions at the door. I must at least strive to have my government live up to my personal standards. I must at least try to find a balancing point between positive and negative freedom.&quot; 

Democratic socialists in the UK generally agree - and the Blair/Brown economic model explicitly says - that the balance in the UK had tipped too far towards government intervention in all things. That economic model propelled Labor to three electoral victories and, indeed, all of Blair&#039;s perceived failures have been when he decided to err on the side of too much governmental control of individuals (surveillance, the Iraq war itself, ID cards etc).

It isn&#039;t an easy balancing point for any government to find, but my religious beliefs tell me it would be morally negligent and intellectually lazy not to at least try solely on the basis that it would be hard work.

Regards, C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I suppose the key concept is - how do you pull yourself up by the bootstraps if you have no boots?</p>
<p>You write:</p>
<blockquote><p>Had I a magic wand, I would waive it and alleviate these conditions (except perhaps unemployment, which is necessary at the margins to enable the creative destruction that makes our economy so robust). Lacking such a device, however, it is not clear to me that government can effect a cure for these things that not worse than the disease.</p></blockquote>
<p> Proponents of negative freedom alone leave the attempt to find such a cure right there. They fail to even try. Those who accept both positive and negative freedom counter with something akin to: "Well, just because it is "government" doesn't mean I should leave my ethics and/or religious convictions at the door. I must at least strive to have my government live up to my personal standards. I must at least try to find a balancing point between positive and negative freedom." </p>
<p>Democratic socialists in the UK generally agree - and the Blair/Brown economic model explicitly says - that the balance in the UK had tipped too far towards government intervention in all things. That economic model propelled Labor to three electoral victories and, indeed, all of Blair's perceived failures have been when he decided to err on the side of too much governmental control of individuals (surveillance, the Iraq war itself, ID cards etc).</p>
<p>It isn't an easy balancing point for any government to find, but my religious beliefs tell me it would be morally negligent and intellectually lazy not to at least try solely on the basis that it would be hard work.</p>
<p>Regards, C</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105090</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105090</guid>
		<description>Hi Floyd,

Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://cernigsnewshog.blogspot.com/2004/11/positive-freedom.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an old post of mine&lt;/a&gt; on the subject but Brit poli-scientist Julian Baggini puts it thusly:
&lt;blockquote&gt;[Negative freedom] means a lack of coercion or intrusion from government in the lives of citizens. At the national level, it means a lack of intervention from outsiders in the life of the country. In both cases, the key idea is that the individual and the nation are both entities which alone have the absolute right to determine their own destinies for themselves. 

...Negative freedom is vitally important. But the left has always recognised another from of liberty: positive freedom. This is the practical ability to actually make choices and live your life in the way you want. The problem is that negative freedom alone doesn&#039;t guarantee this. If you have no opportunities in life, the fact that the government isn&#039;t interfering with your business is small consolation...Freedom only becomes real if people are empowered to make choices for themselves, and they may need the help of others to do so.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Cameron&#039;s speech is in a strong British conservative tradition that includes Adam Smith (who believed aiding the poorest of society was one of the necessary functions of government), Benjamin Disraeli and the younger Winston Churchill which predates both Marx and Thatcherite/American Republican economics and acknowledges that &quot;positive freedom&quot; has an important role in ethical governing. I also suspect, very strongly, that those who founded and shaped America would have agreed with Smith, Disraeli et al - since all the records show they were heavily influenced by the seminal Scottish Enlightenment thinkers who always had a place for positive freedom in their work.

Regards, Cernig</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Floyd,</p>
<p>Here's <a href="http://cernigsnewshog.blogspot.com/2004/11/positive-freedom.html" rel="nofollow">an old post of mine</a> on the subject but Brit poli-scientist Julian Baggini puts it thusly:</p>
<blockquote><p>[Negative freedom] means a lack of coercion or intrusion from government in the lives of citizens. At the national level, it means a lack of intervention from outsiders in the life of the country. In both cases, the key idea is that the individual and the nation are both entities which alone have the absolute right to determine their own destinies for themselves. </p>
<p>...Negative freedom is vitally important. But the left has always recognised another from of liberty: positive freedom. This is the practical ability to actually make choices and live your life in the way you want. The problem is that negative freedom alone doesn't guarantee this. If you have no opportunities in life, the fact that the government isn't interfering with your business is small consolation...Freedom only becomes real if people are empowered to make choices for themselves, and they may need the help of others to do so.</p></blockquote>
<p> Cameron's speech is in a strong British conservative tradition that includes Adam Smith (who believed aiding the poorest of society was one of the necessary functions of government), Benjamin Disraeli and the younger Winston Churchill which predates both Marx and Thatcherite/American Republican economics and acknowledges that "positive freedom" has an important role in ethical governing. I also suspect, very strongly, that those who founded and shaped America would have agreed with Smith, Disraeli et al - since all the records show they were heavily influenced by the seminal Scottish Enlightenment thinkers who always had a place for positive freedom in their work.</p>
<p>Regards, Cernig</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105085</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>cernig; please explain this &quot;positive freedom&quot; should it read socialism? or guaranteed minimum income, as i suspect? or is it something totally different?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cernig; please explain this "positive freedom" should it read socialism? or guaranteed minimum income, as i suspect? or is it something totally different?</p>
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		<title>By: Newshog</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105074</link>
		<dc:creator>Newshog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105074</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Compassionate Conservatism And Positive Freedom...&lt;/strong&gt;

As Cameron rightly points out, allowing the poorest of our society to go without food, power and shelter in our affluent society is immoral and downright uncivilised. That&#039;s a real expression of compassionate conservatism and I heartily applaud Camer....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Compassionate Conservatism And Positive Freedom...</strong></p>
<p>As Cameron rightly points out, allowing the poorest of our society to go without food, power and shelter in our affluent society is immoral and downright uncivilised. That's a real expression of compassionate conservatism and I heartily applaud Camer....</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105073</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/11/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/#comment-105073</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a well-thought out response, James. It generated a another post of mine on the nature of compassionate conservatism and the role a notion of positive freedom can play in that.

Regards, Cernig</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a well-thought out response, James. It generated a another post of mine on the nature of compassionate conservatism and the role a notion of positive freedom can play in that.</p>
<p>Regards, Cernig</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105066</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;there is nothing you can do for a dollar, that government can&#039;t do half as well for a thousand.&quot; This statement is both generous and optimistic!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"there is nothing you can do for a dollar, that government can't do half as well for a thousand." This statement is both generous and optimistic!!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105056</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 15:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>America&#039;s current system of public education has had one purpose since its inception in the late 19th century:  acculturation.  Disconnecting the kids from the culture of their parents (in the late 19th century those were immigrants, mostly Eastern (Jewish) and Southern (Catholic) European.  It&#039;s been remarkably successful.

Its secondary purpose, turning the kids into Americans, has been somewhat less successful.

Our experiment in universal education is only about 50 years old.  For half that it&#039;s changed from being a respectable profession for middle class and upper middle class women to being a path  to the middle class for minorities.  Whether that is compatible with its presumed objectives is a good question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>America's current system of public education has had one purpose since its inception in the late 19th century:  acculturation.  Disconnecting the kids from the culture of their parents (in the late 19th century those were immigrants, mostly Eastern (Jewish) and Southern (Catholic) European.  It's been remarkably successful.</p>
<p>Its secondary purpose, turning the kids into Americans, has been somewhat less successful.</p>
<p>Our experiment in universal education is only about 50 years old.  For half that it's changed from being a respectable profession for middle class and upper middle class women to being a path  to the middle class for minorities.  Whether that is compatible with its presumed objectives is a good question.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/british_conservatives_radical_anti-povery_program/comment-page-1/#comment-105054</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 15:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Old joke from the 1960&#039;s review &lt;i&gt;Beyond the Fringe&lt;/i&gt; (explaining America&#039;s political parties to Brits):
&lt;blockquote&gt;&#147;There&#039;s the Republican Party which is roughly the equivalent of our Conservative Party and the Democratic Party which is roughly the equivalent of our Conservative Party.&#148;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old joke from the 1960's review <i>Beyond the Fringe</i> (explaining America's political parties to Brits):</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;There's the Republican Party which is roughly the equivalent of our Conservative Party and the Democratic Party which is roughly the equivalent of our Conservative Party.&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
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