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	<title>Comments on: Bill Buckley and The Gays</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-1277386</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-1277386</guid>
		<description>Really, the likely reason for Buckley&#039;s &#039;civility&#039; is that his friends--Joseph McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover--were fudge-nudgers...if not Buckley himself. Homosexuality was tolerated in that Ivy League culture.

Here, of course, is one of the great ironies of the issue. Both the Marxist-Leninist and Christian-socialist (e.g., Canada&#039;s CCF party) movements were &lt;em&gt;vehemently&lt;/em&gt; anti-gay. With its intillectual roots in Christianity, Marxism regarded homosexuality as an unproductive, hedonistic and bourgeois activity. The CCF&#039;s founders--Revs. Woodsworth and Douglas--would be agast at the latter-day NDP&#039;s stance on gay marriage. When the Republicans cozied-up with the &lt;em&gt;religious&lt;/em&gt; right, that &#039;De Lovely&#039; nancy culture went out the window. Bill Buckley belonged to an earlier generation of conservative fruit-flies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really, the likely reason for Buckley's 'civility' is that his friends--Joseph McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover--were fudge-nudgers...if not Buckley himself. Homosexuality was tolerated in that Ivy League culture.</p>
<p>Here, of course, is one of the great ironies of the issue. Both the Marxist-Leninist and Christian-socialist (e.g., Canada's CCF party) movements were <em>vehemently</em> anti-gay. With its intillectual roots in Christianity, Marxism regarded homosexuality as an unproductive, hedonistic and bourgeois activity. The CCF's founders--Revs. Woodsworth and Douglas--would be agast at the latter-day NDP's stance on gay marriage. When the Republicans cozied-up with the <em>religious</em> right, that 'De Lovely' nancy culture went out the window. Bill Buckley belonged to an earlier generation of conservative fruit-flies.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Barnes</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-292050</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Barnes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-292050</guid>
		<description>What I find interesting is that people like Sullivan assume that his position on homosexuality is the right one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find interesting is that people like Sullivan assume that his position on homosexuality is the right one.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291793</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291793</guid>
		<description>There are victimless crimes but not victimless sins. If one is a religious believer, then one believes that the sinner is a victim of his/her own sins. That&#039;s why the analogy makes sense; it doesn&#039;t matter if the two actions (stealing and fornication) are equivalent in terms of effects on society; equivalency or nonequivalency in that sense is irrelevant here. To the religious believer, at risk is the soul of the one who commits these acts. Atheists don&#039;t have to agree with that, but they should understand the concept at least, and respect the argument on those grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are victimless crimes but not victimless sins. If one is a religious believer, then one believes that the sinner is a victim of his/her own sins. That's why the analogy makes sense; it doesn't matter if the two actions (stealing and fornication) are equivalent in terms of effects on society; equivalency or nonequivalency in that sense is irrelevant here. To the religious believer, at risk is the soul of the one who commits these acts. Atheists don't have to agree with that, but they should understand the concept at least, and respect the argument on those grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: Little Miss Attila</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291594</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Miss Attila</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 07:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291594</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Well, We All Have Our Contradictions....&lt;/strong&gt;

Joyner indulges in a little meditation on the subject of William F. Buckley&#039;s relationship with homosexuality. (And, by the way: my congratulations to anyone who can decipher what Vidal and Buckley were saying during that infamous heated exchange in ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Well, We All Have Our Contradictions....</strong></p>
<p>Joyner indulges in a little meditation on the subject of William F. Buckley's relationship with homosexuality. (And, by the way: my congratulations to anyone who can decipher what Vidal and Buckley were saying during that infamous heated exchange in ...</p>
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		<title>By: Ol' BC</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291483</link>
		<dc:creator>Ol' BC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 03:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291483</guid>
		<description>Not only were Bill Buckley&#039;s words something to behold, but his delivery was unique.  He was indeed a great American.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not only were Bill Buckley's words something to behold, but his delivery was unique.  He was indeed a great American.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291450</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 02:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291450</guid>
		<description>&quot;&quot; times change.&quot;&quot;
&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;
 Perhaps,but truth and and true morality do not.

 Thanks for the reminder of just what a solid intellectual adult among children Mr. Buckley truly was!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"" times change.""<br />
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br />
 Perhaps,but truth and and true morality do not.</p>
<p> Thanks for the reminder of just what a solid intellectual adult among children Mr. Buckley truly was!</p>
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		<title>By: Mithras</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291285</link>
		<dc:creator>Mithras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291285</guid>
		<description>Oy. &quot;Different from&quot;, not &quot;different than&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oy. "Different from", not "different than".</p>
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		<title>By: Mithras</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291282</link>
		<dc:creator>Mithras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291282</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Intellectually, it was a brilliant point.&lt;/em&gt;

Sadly, No! Encouraging sexually active children to use condoms not only protects the child from catching a disease, it also reduces the chance that he or she will pass one on, which makes it morally different than just minimizing the risk of negative consequences to oneself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Intellectually, it was a brilliant point.</em></p>
<p>Sadly, No! Encouraging sexually active children to use condoms not only protects the child from catching a disease, it also reduces the chance that he or she will pass one on, which makes it morally different than just minimizing the risk of negative consequences to oneself.</p>
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		<title>By: Triumph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291274</link>
		<dc:creator>Triumph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291274</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Burglars use gloves to not get caught, people use condoms to avoid a terrible disease. Getting caught is a minor problem.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This criticism of WFB is off-base.  

Burglars do wear glove not to get caught.

Condom-wearers wear them not to catch stuff.

Its all about being caught or catching.  Its a brilliant analogy befitting a sesquipedalian like WFB.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Burglars use gloves to not get caught, people use condoms to avoid a terrible disease. Getting caught is a minor problem.</p></blockquote>
<p>This criticism of WFB is off-base.  </p>
<p>Burglars do wear glove not to get caught.</p>
<p>Condom-wearers wear them not to catch stuff.</p>
<p>Its all about being caught or catching.  Its a brilliant analogy befitting a sesquipedalian like WFB.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Plunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291241</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Plunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291241</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s correct to assume true believers would take the position of consensual sex and burglar being moral equivalents.  Stealing is one of the ten commandments obviously but the only sex mention is in the context of adultery.

Religious believers also apply a more secular measure of how a sin actually hurts others and/or society.  Rampant premarital sex may cause problems but not nearly the problems of rampant stealing.

Unfortunately Buckley&#039;s test of equivalence here is wrong. Burglars use gloves to not get caught, people use condoms to avoid a terrible disease.  Getting caught is a minor problem.

Regardless, the man was a giant in my mind.  A fine example and role model for those of us who trade ideas in the public square.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm not sure it's correct to assume true believers would take the position of consensual sex and burglar being moral equivalents.  Stealing is one of the ten commandments obviously but the only sex mention is in the context of adultery.</p>
<p>Religious believers also apply a more secular measure of how a sin actually hurts others and/or society.  Rampant premarital sex may cause problems but not nearly the problems of rampant stealing.</p>
<p>Unfortunately Buckley's test of equivalence here is wrong. Burglars use gloves to not get caught, people use condoms to avoid a terrible disease.  Getting caught is a minor problem.</p>
<p>Regardless, the man was a giant in my mind.  A fine example and role model for those of us who trade ideas in the public square.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291173</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291173</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think you have that reversed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Fixed now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think you have that reversed.</p></blockquote>
<p>Fixed now.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291165</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291165</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;He could love the sin but not the sinner.&lt;/em&gt;

I think you have that reversed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>He could love the sin but not the sinner.</em></p>
<p>I think you have that reversed.</p>
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		<title>By: Triumph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/buckley_and_the_gays/comment-page-1/#comment-291161</link>
		<dc:creator>Triumph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/buckley_and_the_gays/#comment-291161</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And from the perspective of a religious true believer, he was likely right. From any other, though, the moral equivalence of consensual sex and burglary is ridiculous.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Perhaps a more troubling aspect of his legacy was his enthusiastic defense of Jim Crow--something that is not only antithetical to the intellectual basis for conservatism, but was pretty remarkable coming from Buckley&#039;s position as an effete a northern &quot;intellectual.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And from the perspective of a religious true believer, he was likely right. From any other, though, the moral equivalence of consensual sex and burglary is ridiculous.</p></blockquote>
<p>Perhaps a more troubling aspect of his legacy was his enthusiastic defense of Jim Crow--something that is not only antithetical to the intellectual basis for conservatism, but was pretty remarkable coming from Buckley's position as an effete a northern "intellectual."</p>
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