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	<title>Comments on: Bulb Wars: Fluorescent versus Incandescent</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
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		<title>By: Gerry Beauregard</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-112717</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry Beauregard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-112717</guid>
		<description>Banning incandescent bulbs seems awfully extreme.  Anyone who cares about their electricity bills and can do basic math will realize that compact fluorescent bulbs pay for themselves pretty quickly.  

The modern ones look great too - the &quot;warm white&quot; models I use have very nearly the same colour as incandescents, and I&#039;ve never noticed any flicker - not like conventional overhead fluo tubes, whose flicker drives me nuts. 

Here in Singapore, incandescents and fluorescents are both readily available.  This in a country where chewing gum is banned! Most people buy fluorescents, not because of legislation or any desire to save the environment, but rather because it&#039;s much, much cheaper.

With the electricity rates here (about US$0.14 / kWh), replacing a 100W incandescent with a US$5 20W compact fluorescent saves about US$100 over its ~10000 hour life.  It&#039;s a no brainer, regardless of whether you care about the environment!

Rather than legislate, perhaps the utilities could provide a service to sell bulbs (and maybe even come to your house to screw them in), and have consumers pay for them in installments, say, over the course of 6 months via their utility bills.  Over the first 6 months, the installments &amp; energy savings would cancel out; afterwards, the utility bills would drop noticeably.  Who would argue with that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Banning incandescent bulbs seems awfully extreme.  Anyone who cares about their electricity bills and can do basic math will realize that compact fluorescent bulbs pay for themselves pretty quickly.  </p>
<p>The modern ones look great too - the "warm white" models I use have very nearly the same colour as incandescents, and I've never noticed any flicker - not like conventional overhead fluo tubes, whose flicker drives me nuts. </p>
<p>Here in Singapore, incandescents and fluorescents are both readily available.  This in a country where chewing gum is banned! Most people buy fluorescents, not because of legislation or any desire to save the environment, but rather because it's much, much cheaper.</p>
<p>With the electricity rates here (about US$0.14 / kWh), replacing a 100W incandescent with a US$5 20W compact fluorescent saves about US$100 over its ~10000 hour life.  It's a no brainer, regardless of whether you care about the environment!</p>
<p>Rather than legislate, perhaps the utilities could provide a service to sell bulbs (and maybe even come to your house to screw them in), and have consumers pay for them in installments, say, over the course of 6 months via their utility bills.  Over the first 6 months, the installments &amp; energy savings would cancel out; afterwards, the utility bills would drop noticeably.  Who would argue with that?</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111896</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111896</guid>
		<description>Fear of bureaucrats? Heck; Monty Python had to go off the air because it became impossible to parody bureaucrats!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fear of bureaucrats? Heck; Monty Python had to go off the air because it became impossible to parody bureaucrats!</p>
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		<title>By: Ben W</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111851</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111851</guid>
		<description>Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Clearly, no one involved with this proposal has any practical knowledge of how these lights work. Fluorescent bulbs, including compact fluorescent bulbs, don&#039;t actually emit steady illumination, but a series of flashes far too fast for the eye to see. this is fine for Most purposes, but not all. 
Try using a fluorescent light around machinery, like a lathe, and you soon may be missing body parts, as the strobe effect can fool you into thinking somethings not moving.  I watch this happen in high school shop when someone didn&#039;t turn on the incandescent light on the lath, using only the classroom fluorescent, they ended up loosing 2 fingers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stupid, stupid, stupid.</p>
<p>Clearly, no one involved with this proposal has any practical knowledge of how these lights work. Fluorescent bulbs, including compact fluorescent bulbs, don't actually emit steady illumination, but a series of flashes far too fast for the eye to see. this is fine for Most purposes, but not all.<br />
Try using a fluorescent light around machinery, like a lathe, and you soon may be missing body parts, as the strobe effect can fool you into thinking somethings not moving.  I watch this happen in high school shop when someone didn't turn on the incandescent light on the lath, using only the classroom fluorescent, they ended up loosing 2 fingers</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111725</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111725</guid>
		<description>I certainly agree, SP, but I can see a reasonable policy decision along these lines:

(1) the new bulbs are functionally adequate to replace the old;

(2) they use substantially less electricity;

(3) requiring their use will decrease electricity use, which is a Good Thing.

Legislatures make calls like that &lt;i&gt;all the time&lt;/i&gt;, and I don&#039;t understand what about this particular instance is getting anyone&#039;s panties in a wad.

As for &quot;enumerated powers,&quot; I don&#039;t know what California&#039;s constitution provides for in that respect, but I notice the conspicuous absence of any discussions thereof in this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly agree, SP, but I can see a reasonable policy decision along these lines:</p>
<p>(1) the new bulbs are functionally adequate to replace the old;</p>
<p>(2) they use substantially less electricity;</p>
<p>(3) requiring their use will decrease electricity use, which is a Good Thing.</p>
<p>Legislatures make calls like that <i>all the time</i>, and I don't understand what about this particular instance is getting anyone's panties in a wad.</p>
<p>As for "enumerated powers," I don't know what California's constitution provides for in that respect, but I notice the conspicuous absence of any discussions thereof in this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Plunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111720</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Plunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111720</guid>
		<description>Anderson,

I see your point that it seems some are against all laws, all the time.  But in this case I think it goes back to the idea that government should have certain enumerated powers.  Intruding into all facets of private life should be looked upon with suspicion by both conservatives and liberals.  The issues may be different but both ends of the political spectrum fear that bureaucrat lording over us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anderson,</p>
<p>I see your point that it seems some are against all laws, all the time.  But in this case I think it goes back to the idea that government should have certain enumerated powers.  Intruding into all facets of private life should be looked upon with suspicion by both conservatives and liberals.  The issues may be different but both ends of the political spectrum fear that bureaucrat lording over us.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111689</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 03:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111689</guid>
		<description>&quot;No concept of the rights of the individual&quot; over &lt;i&gt;light bulbs&lt;/i&gt;?

Man, I am so glad there was no internet when leaded gas went out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"No concept of the rights of the individual" over <i>light bulbs</i>?</p>
<p>Man, I am so glad there was no internet when leaded gas went out.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111685</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111685</guid>
		<description>Personally, I use arc lamps.
(grin)

The other question, of course, is whether are not such a law would prevent better technologies from being used.  The law of unintended consequences would seem to apply here.  

And Anderson, that you can ask such a question speaks loudly to my mind that you have no concept much less any love, of the rights of the&lt;em&gt; individual. &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I use arc lamps.<br />
(grin)</p>
<p>The other question, of course, is whether are not such a law would prevent better technologies from being used.  The law of unintended consequences would seem to apply here.  </p>
<p>And Anderson, that you can ask such a question speaks loudly to my mind that you have no concept much less any love, of the rights of the<em> individual. </em></p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111677</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111677</guid>
		<description>the public pays way more than the full cost of electricity. to quote ray ansell &quot;ya know liars may figger , but figgers don&#039;t lie&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the public pays way more than the full cost of electricity. to quote ray ansell "ya know liars may figger , but figgers don't lie".</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111675</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111675</guid>
		<description>anderson.... or is it polyanna??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anderson.... or is it polyanna??</p>
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		<title>By: jwb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111674</link>
		<dc:creator>jwb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 22:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111674</guid>
		<description>There is not even 50% +1 in this case.  There&#039;s no point in making a big stink about all the crazy ideas that singular assembly members cook up.  The Assembly is a large body with many members.  A profusion of stupid ideas is to be expected.  They never pass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is not even 50% +1 in this case.  There's no point in making a big stink about all the crazy ideas that singular assembly members cook up.  The Assembly is a large body with many members.  A profusion of stupid ideas is to be expected.  They never pass.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111673</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 22:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111673</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;If CA’s voters want to limit their choices this way, who has a problem with that?&lt;/em&gt;

The argument, presumably, is that this sort of thing is outside the &lt;em&gt;res publica&lt;/em&gt;.  Simply because 50% plus one is in favor of something does not mean it should therefore be the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>If CA&rsquo;s voters want to limit their choices this way, who has a problem with that?</em></p>
<p>The argument, presumably, is that this sort of thing is outside the <em>res publica</em>.  Simply because 50% plus one is in favor of something does not mean it should therefore be the law.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111666</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 21:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111666</guid>
		<description>Are fluorescents really more energy-efficient (from raw materials through utilization) than incandescents?  Are they environmentally more friendly?  Unless those things are known with confidence the result could be perverse.

Does the state of California use exclusively fluorescents now?  If not perhaps a good start might be to do so before banning incandescents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are fluorescents really more energy-efficient (from raw materials through utilization) than incandescents?  Are they environmentally more friendly?  Unless those things are known with confidence the result could be perverse.</p>
<p>Does the state of California use exclusively fluorescents now?  If not perhaps a good start might be to do so before banning incandescents.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111665</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 21:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111665</guid>
		<description>I fail to see the problem.  If CA&#039;s voters want to limit their choices this way, who has a problem with that?  And if they don&#039;t, they can replace their legislators accordingly.

Some commentators seem opposed to the notion of &quot;law&quot; in general, inasmuch as laws don&#039;t let us do whatever we want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fail to see the problem.  If CA's voters want to limit their choices this way, who has a problem with that?  And if they don't, they can replace their legislators accordingly.</p>
<p>Some commentators seem opposed to the notion of "law" in general, inasmuch as laws don't let us do whatever we want.</p>
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		<title>By: The Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111662</link>
		<dc:creator>The Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111662</guid>
		<description>I have yet to see a fluorescent theatre light.

I wonder how Hollywood is going to deal with that, or are they more equal than ordinary households?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have yet to see a fluorescent theatre light.</p>
<p>I wonder how Hollywood is going to deal with that, or are they more equal than ordinary households?</p>
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		<title>By: John Norris Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/comment-page-1/#comment-111659</link>
		<dc:creator>John Norris Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/bulb_wars_fluorescent_versus_incandescent/#comment-111659</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re absolutely right that making consumers pay the full cost of electricity would lead to greater energy conservation. But that would mean the government would have to give up some power, which doesn&#039;t often happen. And if it did, the usual suspects would be whining about &quot;big utilities.&quot; Sadly, most people believe that government has all the answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You're absolutely right that making consumers pay the full cost of electricity would lead to greater energy conservation. But that would mean the government would have to give up some power, which doesn't often happen. And if it did, the usual suspects would be whining about "big utilities." Sadly, most people believe that government has all the answers.</p>
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