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	<title>Comments on: Official: Bush Approved Eavesdropping</title>
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		<title>By: hilzoy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68528</link>
		<dc:creator>hilzoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 02:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68528</guid>
		<description>Hi (and nice to meet you last night ;) ) -- I, too, don&#039;t think this surveillance was legal under sec. 1802. For one thing, sec. 1802 holds that the AG has to certify in writing that &quot;there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party&quot;. So I don&#039;t see how it could be used to place citizens (or legal residents) under surveillance.

I also don&#039;t see why it was necessary, given the emergency provisions in sec. 1805, which allow the AG to authorize surveillance without a wiretap, provided he applies for a warrant within 72 hours. That, I would think, covers those situations in which an agency has to act too quickly to get a warrant, and it does so in the best way I can think of: allowing flexible government action while ensuring that a judge will have a chance to pass on the legitimacy of the surveillance.

Finally, about the question whether the use of force resolution counts as a &#039;declaration of war&#039; under the statute: here I think it&#039;s relevant that FISA was written in 1978, after Korea, Vietnam, etc. The drafters could quite easily have said &#039;when the country is at war&#039;, and not &#039;following a declaration of war by the Congress&#039;. They had to have been aware of the possibility of undeclared wars. That they chose to say &#039;following a declaration of war by thee Congress&#039; seems more likely to be an intentional restriction than it would have been had FISA been drafted right after WW2, for instance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi (and nice to meet you last night ;) ) -- I, too, don't think this surveillance was legal under sec. 1802. For one thing, sec. 1802 holds that the AG has to certify in writing that "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party". So I don't see how it could be used to place citizens (or legal residents) under surveillance.</p>
<p>I also don't see why it was necessary, given the emergency provisions in sec. 1805, which allow the AG to authorize surveillance without a wiretap, provided he applies for a warrant within 72 hours. That, I would think, covers those situations in which an agency has to act too quickly to get a warrant, and it does so in the best way I can think of: allowing flexible government action while ensuring that a judge will have a chance to pass on the legitimacy of the surveillance.</p>
<p>Finally, about the question whether the use of force resolution counts as a 'declaration of war' under the statute: here I think it's relevant that FISA was written in 1978, after Korea, Vietnam, etc. The drafters could quite easily have said 'when the country is at war', and not 'following a declaration of war by the Congress'. They had to have been aware of the possibility of undeclared wars. That they chose to say 'following a declaration of war by thee Congress' seems more likely to be an intentional restriction than it would have been had FISA been drafted right after WW2, for instance.</p>
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		<title>By: Late Final</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68468</link>
		<dc:creator>Late Final</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68468</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Bugged&lt;/strong&gt;

President Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to conduct eavesdropping activities on those suspected of having al Qaeda links, who were in the U.S. making overseas phone calls and writing emails to people in other countries. The New...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Bugged</strong></p>
<p>President Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to conduct eavesdropping activities on those suspected of having al Qaeda links, who were in the U.S. making overseas phone calls and writing emails to people in other countries. The New...</p>
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		<title>By: MikeAdamson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68442</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeAdamson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68442</guid>
		<description>Anderson...I believe that 1801 includes international terrorist groups as foreign powers. It seems to me that 1802 (a)(1)(B) is the clause that will determine the legalities in terms of this law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anderson...I believe that 1801 includes international terrorist groups as foreign powers. It seems to me that 1802 (a)(1)(B) is the clause that will determine the legalities in terms of this law.</p>
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		<title>By: Small Town Veteran</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68440</link>
		<dc:creator>Small Town Veteran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68440</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;We eavesdropped on the bad guys! Oh, my! -- Part 2&lt;/strong&gt;

(See my previous post here.) ....  Is it time for the NSA to start monitoring communications between CIA and NYT employees? ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>We eavesdropped on the bad guys! Oh, my! -- Part 2</strong></p>
<p>(See my previous post here.) ....  Is it time for the NSA to start monitoring communications between CIA and NYT employees? ...</p>
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		<title>By: Say Anything - North Dakota&#8217;s Most Popular Political Blog &#187; Bush Admits To Authorizing Domestic Spying, Chastises Those Responsible For Leaking</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68434</link>
		<dc:creator>Say Anything - North Dakota&#8217;s Most Popular Political Blog &#187; Bush Admits To Authorizing Domestic Spying, Chastises Those Responsible For Leaking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68434</guid>
		<description>[...] Personally, I have no problem with the FBI monitoring the phone calls of mob bosses when said monitoring is authorized by a judge. I also have no problem with the NSA monitoring the communication of suspected international terrorists when said monitoring is authorized by the highest ranking elected official in this country. And, aside from my personal opinion on the matter, it also appears as though the President&#8217;s actions are well within the legal scope of U.S. law. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Personally, I have no problem with the FBI monitoring the phone calls of mob bosses when said monitoring is authorized by a judge. I also have no problem with the NSA monitoring the communication of suspected international terrorists when said monitoring is authorized by the highest ranking elected official in this country. And, aside from my personal opinion on the matter, it also appears as though the President&#8217;s actions are well within the legal scope of U.S. law. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Herb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68424</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68424</guid>
		<description>Anderson:

Is your comment part of your Yankee Doodle, Red, white and Blue speech. If you don&#039;t care about securty and being blown up along with the rest of your family, then that is your right and I hardly expect you to respect my disagreement with you.

However, I do expect you to respect other Americans understanding and desire to have the securty from those who would destroy our way of life. If you are only thinking of yourself, then, take your high and mighty know it all thoughts and speeches elsewhere. There is no place for those who only think of themselves in wartime and cry out about the lack of your so called rights when we have those who are trying and doing everything possible to protect us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anderson:</p>
<p>Is your comment part of your Yankee Doodle, Red, white and Blue speech. If you don't care about securty and being blown up along with the rest of your family, then that is your right and I hardly expect you to respect my disagreement with you.</p>
<p>However, I do expect you to respect other Americans understanding and desire to have the securty from those who would destroy our way of life. If you are only thinking of yourself, then, take your high and mighty know it all thoughts and speeches elsewhere. There is no place for those who only think of themselves in wartime and cry out about the lack of your so called rights when we have those who are trying and doing everything possible to protect us.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68416</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68416</guid>
		<description>Herb, if you&#039;re happy in principle with a dictatorship so long as it keeps you safe, that is your right, and I can hardly expect you to respect my disagreement with you.

This country was founded by men who had suffered the arbitrary power of government and who intended to protect against it.  Conservatives used to honor the Founders&#039; ideas as well as their memory, but as I&#039;ve noted, there are few conservatives left in 2005.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Herb, if you're happy in principle with a dictatorship so long as it keeps you safe, that is your right, and I can hardly expect you to respect my disagreement with you.</p>
<p>This country was founded by men who had suffered the arbitrary power of government and who intended to protect against it.  Conservatives used to honor the Founders' ideas as well as their memory, but as I've noted, there are few conservatives left in 2005.</p>
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		<title>By: Herb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68412</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68412</guid>
		<description>Spencer:

You said:

&quot;Consequently, doing the monitoring without legal authorty did nothing to improve US securty&quot;

How do you know that securty was not improved?

It seems to me that that information was highly classified and if you know that your statement was fact by some inside method, then &quot;You are devulging classified information&quot;

I would assume that you are talking here with emotion and not fact.

Anderson: Why don&#039;t you close your clapper trap and realize that the entire program was to protect yourself as well as the American people from further terrorist attacks like 9/11. Or are one of those that would curse out the person who gave you a million dollars with no strings attached.

Some people are never happy with anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spencer:</p>
<p>You said:</p>
<p>"Consequently, doing the monitoring without legal authorty did nothing to improve US securty"</p>
<p>How do you know that securty was not improved?</p>
<p>It seems to me that that information was highly classified and if you know that your statement was fact by some inside method, then "You are devulging classified information"</p>
<p>I would assume that you are talking here with emotion and not fact.</p>
<p>Anderson: Why don't you close your clapper trap and realize that the entire program was to protect yourself as well as the American people from further terrorist attacks like 9/11. Or are one of those that would curse out the person who gave you a million dollars with no strings attached.</p>
<p>Some people are never happy with anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68405</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68405</guid>
		<description>JJ, I&#039;m looking at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001802----000-.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;section 1802&lt;/a&gt;, and I don&#039;t think it says what you seem to say it says.

The requirement that a &quot;United States person&quot; not be a target is only one of 3 requirements.  Note the word &quot;and&quot; at the end of 1802(a)(1)(B).

Subpart (A) excludes terrorist groups from its definition of &quot;foreign powers.&quot;  See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sec. 1801&lt;/a&gt;.

So I guess I need explained to me how section 1802 legalizes what the WH has done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JJ, I'm looking at <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001802----000-.html" rel="nofollow">section 1802</a>, and I don't think it says what you seem to say it says.</p>
<p>The requirement that a "United States person" not be a target is only one of 3 requirements.  Note the word "and" at the end of 1802(a)(1)(B).</p>
<p>Subpart (A) excludes terrorist groups from its definition of "foreign powers."  See <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html" rel="nofollow">sec. 1801</a>.</p>
<p>So I guess I need explained to me how section 1802 legalizes what the WH has done.</p>
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		<title>By: BitsBlog</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68388</link>
		<dc:creator>BitsBlog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68388</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Some Scandal, eh?&lt;/strong&gt;

So, in short, the President was doing his job, and doing so well within the bounds of the law. After BVill Clinton, it&#039;s understandable how Demorats would think this a scandal. It&#039;s unlike anything we&#039;ve seen on his watch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Some Scandal, eh?</strong></p>
<p>So, in short, the President was doing his job, and doing so well within the bounds of the law. After BVill Clinton, it's understandable how Demorats would think this a scandal. It's unlike anything we've seen on his watch.</p>
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		<title>By: Thespis Journal</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68387</link>
		<dc:creator>Thespis Journal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68387</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The New York Times Uses Year-Old Story to Promote Book and to Rain On The Iraqi Election Parade&lt;/strong&gt;

Serving in itsâ customary role as maestro for the mainstream media, the New York Times today trumpeted the clarion call to all news organizations to create the illusion of a leading story for the weekend that would obscure and obfuscate the positive re...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The New York Times Uses Year-Old Story to Promote Book and to Rain On The Iraqi Election Parade</strong></p>
<p>Serving in itsâ customary role as maestro for the mainstream media, the New York Times today trumpeted the clarion call to all news organizations to create the illusion of a leading story for the weekend that would obscure and obfuscate the positive re...</p>
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		<title>By: Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68386</link>
		<dc:creator>Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68386</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Bush Approved Eavesdropping, Official Says&lt;/strong&gt;

President Bush has personally authorized a secretive eavesdropping program in the United States more</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Bush Approved Eavesdropping, Official Says</strong></p>
<p>President Bush has personally authorized a secretive eavesdropping program in the United States more</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68385</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68385</guid>
		<description>spencer:  It&#039;s far from clear that the law was broken, as noted in the post.  Further, as noted in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13010&quot; title=&quot;Bush Allowed Warrantless Phone Surveillance After 9/11&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bush Allowed Warrantless Phone Surveillance After 9/11&lt;/a&gt;, there may be perfectly good reasons why getting warrants was not feasible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>spencer:  It's far from clear that the law was broken, as noted in the post.  Further, as noted in <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13010" title="Bush Allowed Warrantless Phone Surveillance After 9/11" rel="nofollow">Bush Allowed Warrantless Phone Surveillance After 9/11</a>, there may be perfectly good reasons why getting warrants was not feasible.</p>
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		<title>By: spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68384</link>
		<dc:creator>spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68384</guid>
		<description>The problem with the points I see here is that there does not seem to be any need for these actions.  There is a legal system for the administration to get approvat for these &quot;wire-traps?&quot; through a special court system that has never rejected a request to monitor commo by Americans.

Consequently, doing the monitoring without legal autority did nothing to improve US security.

So the real point is that the administration broke the law for no apparent gain.  Why?  And of even more importance, why defend breaking the law when you can not even defend it on the grounds of US security?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the points I see here is that there does not seem to be any need for these actions.  There is a legal system for the administration to get approvat for these "wire-traps?" through a special court system that has never rejected a request to monitor commo by Americans.</p>
<p>Consequently, doing the monitoring without legal autority did nothing to improve US security.</p>
<p>So the real point is that the administration broke the law for no apparent gain.  Why?  And of even more importance, why defend breaking the law when you can not even defend it on the grounds of US security?</p>
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		<title>By: M. Murcek</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_approved_eavesdropping_official_says_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-68383</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Murcek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=13025#comment-68383</guid>
		<description>Funny how the same people who writhe and scream when the topic of a Supreme Court nominee perhaps being a &quot;strict constructionist&quot; comes up, become Constitutional absolutists if they think they can tar the President over some obscure and specific finding which, as James has noted, was vetted by an army of government lawyers before the President ever picked up his pen.

Losers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny how the same people who writhe and scream when the topic of a Supreme Court nominee perhaps being a "strict constructionist" comes up, become Constitutional absolutists if they think they can tar the President over some obscure and specific finding which, as James has noted, was vetted by an army of government lawyers before the President ever picked up his pen.</p>
<p>Losers...</p>
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