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	<title>Comments on: Bush Considers Weakening War Crimes Act</title>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93764</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DCL:  Maybe.  Congress can abrograte treaty requirements from a domestic standpoint but other signatories often do not recognize these changes (same link).  

As a practical matter, given that we&#039;re the United States and not, say, rump Yugoslavia, that probably doesn&#039;t much matter.  No international court is going to haul an American official into a war crimes trial without American blessing; which is to say, they&#039;re not going to haul an American official into a war crimes trial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DCL:  Maybe.  Congress can abrograte treaty requirements from a domestic standpoint but other signatories often do not recognize these changes (same link).  </p>
<p>As a practical matter, given that we're the United States and not, say, rump Yugoslavia, that probably doesn't much matter.  No international court is going to haul an American official into a war crimes trial without American blessing; which is to say, they're not going to haul an American official into a war crimes trial.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93762</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>So I&#039;m right????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I'm right????</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93724</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 03:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/08/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/#comment-93724</guid>
		<description>Don:

I have long had it in my head that simple legislation couldn&#039;t trump treaties on the notion that the latter required supermajority approval.

Additionally, Article VI could be read that way: &quot;This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; [...]&quot;

But you&#039;re right:  The case law is clear on this matter.  From &lt;a href=&quot;http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/10.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;FindLaw&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is in respect to his contention that, when it is asked to carry a treaty into effect, Congress has the constitutional right, and indeed the duty, to determine the matter according to its own ideas of what is expedient, that Madison has been most completely vindicated by developments. This is seen in the answer which the Court has returned to the question: What happens when a treaty provision and an act of Congress conflict? The answer is, that neither has any intrinsic superiority over the other and that therefore the one of later date will prevail leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant. In short, the treaty commitments of the United States do not diminish Congress&#039; constitutional powers. To be sure, legislative repeal of a treaty as law of the land may amount to a violation of it as an international contract in the judgment of the other party to it. In such case, as the Court has said: &#039;&#039;Its infraction becomes the subject of international negotiations and reclamations, so far as the injured party chooses to seek redress, which may in the end be enforced by actual war. It is obvious that with all this the judicial courts have nothing to do and can give no redress.

======

[Footnote 303] Head Money Cases, 112 U.S. 580, 598 -599 (1884). The repealability of treaties by act of Congress was first asserted in an opinion of the Attorney General in 1854. 6 Ops. Atty. Gen. 291. The year following the doctrine was adopted judicially in a lengthy and cogently argued opinion of Justice Curtis, speaking for a United States circuit court in Taylor v. Morton, 23 Fed. Cas. 784 (No. 13,799) (C.C.D. Mass 1855). See also The Cherokee Tobacco, 78 U.S. (11 Wall.) 616 (1871); United States v. Forty-Three Gallons of Whiskey, 108 U.S. 491, 496 (1883); Botiller v. Dominguez, 130 U.S. 238 (1889); The Chinese Exclusion Case, 130 U.S. 581, 600 (1889); Whitney v. Robertson, 124 U.S. 190, 194 (1888); Fong Yue Ting v. United States, 149 U.S. 698, 721 (1893). &#039;&#039;Congress by legislation, and so far as the people and authorities of the United States are concerned, could abrogate a treaty made between this country and another country which had been negotiated by the President and approved by the Senate.&#039;&#039; La Abra Silver Mining Co. v. United States, 175 U.S. 423, 460 (1899). Cf. Reichart v. Felps, 73 U.S. (6 Wall.) 160, 165 -166 (1868), wherein it is stated obiter that &#039;&#039;Congress is bound to regard the public treaties, and it had no power . . . to nullify [Indian] titles confirmed many years before. . . .&#039;&#039; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don:</p>
<p>I have long had it in my head that simple legislation couldn't trump treaties on the notion that the latter required supermajority approval.</p>
<p>Additionally, Article VI could be read that way: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; [...]"</p>
<p>But you're right:  The case law is clear on this matter.  From <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/10.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">FindLaw</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>It is in respect to his contention that, when it is asked to carry a treaty into effect, Congress has the constitutional right, and indeed the duty, to determine the matter according to its own ideas of what is expedient, that Madison has been most completely vindicated by developments. This is seen in the answer which the Court has returned to the question: What happens when a treaty provision and an act of Congress conflict? The answer is, that neither has any intrinsic superiority over the other and that therefore the one of later date will prevail leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant. In short, the treaty commitments of the United States do not diminish Congress' constitutional powers. To be sure, legislative repeal of a treaty as law of the land may amount to a violation of it as an international contract in the judgment of the other party to it. In such case, as the Court has said: ''Its infraction becomes the subject of international negotiations and reclamations, so far as the injured party chooses to seek redress, which may in the end be enforced by actual war. It is obvious that with all this the judicial courts have nothing to do and can give no redress.</p>
<p>======</p>
<p>[Footnote 303] Head Money Cases, 112 U.S. 580, 598 -599 (1884). The repealability of treaties by act of Congress was first asserted in an opinion of the Attorney General in 1854. 6 Ops. Atty. Gen. 291. The year following the doctrine was adopted judicially in a lengthy and cogently argued opinion of Justice Curtis, speaking for a United States circuit court in Taylor v. Morton, 23 Fed. Cas. 784 (No. 13,799) (C.C.D. Mass 1855). See also The Cherokee Tobacco, 78 U.S. (11 Wall.) 616 (1871); United States v. Forty-Three Gallons of Whiskey, 108 U.S. 491, 496 (1883); Botiller v. Dominguez, 130 U.S. 238 (1889); The Chinese Exclusion Case, 130 U.S. 581, 600 (1889); Whitney v. Robertson, 124 U.S. 190, 194 (1888); Fong Yue Ting v. United States, 149 U.S. 698, 721 (1893). ''Congress by legislation, and so far as the people and authorities of the United States are concerned, could abrogate a treaty made between this country and another country which had been negotiated by the President and approved by the Senate.'' La Abra Silver Mining Co. v. United States, 175 U.S. 423, 460 (1899). Cf. Reichart v. Felps, 73 U.S. (6 Wall.) 160, 165 -166 (1868), wherein it is stated obiter that ''Congress is bound to regard the public treaties, and it had no power . . . to nullify [Indian] titles confirmed many years before. . . .'' </p></blockquote>
<p>Interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Sensing</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93713</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Sensing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Legislation certainly can override treaty commitements. Since T. Jefferson&#039;s day as VP, hence president of the Senate, treaties have been viewed as nothing more than legislative enactments, subject to future legislative modifications or repeals just as any ordinary law. Treaties have mo greater standing in US jurisprudence than any other Congressional enactment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legislation certainly can override treaty commitements. Since T. Jefferson's day as VP, hence president of the Senate, treaties have been viewed as nothing more than legislative enactments, subject to future legislative modifications or repeals just as any ordinary law. Treaties have mo greater standing in US jurisprudence than any other Congressional enactment.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93662</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/08/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/#comment-93662</guid>
		<description>Billmon &lt;a href=&quot;http://billmon.org/archives/002661.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pegs this&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;blockquote&gt;This is like letting John Gotti rewrite the RICO statute.&lt;/blockquote&gt;And the only objection &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; have to seeing America&#039;s torturers tried for war crimes, is seeing Rumsfeld, Haynes, and Gonzales walk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Billmon <a href="http://billmon.org/archives/002661.html" rel="nofollow">pegs this</a>:<br />
<blockquote>This is like letting John Gotti rewrite the RICO statute.</p></blockquote>
<p>And the only objection <em>I</em> have to seeing America's torturers tried for war crimes, is seeing Rumsfeld, Haynes, and Gonzales walk.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93607</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DCL:  Not sure how changing US domestic law would effect that, indeed remote, possibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DCL:  Not sure how changing US domestic law would effect that, indeed remote, possibility.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93606</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>James, please correct me if I&#039;m wrong.  I don&#039;t think the fear was so much of domestic prosecution as I think that&#039;s a very remote possibility unless it&#039;s really egrgious.  I think the fear was more the right wing variety of unaccountable international courts trying US military members.  Wasn&#039;t 2002 about the time that Slobo was handed over to the ICC in the Hague?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, please correct me if I'm wrong.  I don't think the fear was so much of domestic prosecution as I think that's a very remote possibility unless it's really egrgious.  I think the fear was more the right wing variety of unaccountable international courts trying US military members.  Wasn't 2002 about the time that Slobo was handed over to the ICC in the Hague?</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93597</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DCL:  While I opposed going into Bosnia and Kosovo and applying victor&#039;s justice afterwards, it&#039;s a wholly different issue.  We&#039;re talking here about American politicians holding duly elected American politicians criminally responsible for policy decisions on how to treat America&#039;s enemies.  That&#039;s just not a road anyone in power is going to want to go down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DCL:  While I opposed going into Bosnia and Kosovo and applying victor's justice afterwards, it's a wholly different issue.  We're talking here about American politicians holding duly elected American politicians criminally responsible for policy decisions on how to treat America's enemies.  That's just not a road anyone in power is going to want to go down.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93595</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/08/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/#comment-93595</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t think they’re seriously worried about high level officials being prosecuted for exercising their judgment in national security matters. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

  Tell that to Slobo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don&rsquo;t think they&rsquo;re seriously worried about high level officials being prosecuted for exercising their judgment in national security matters. </p></blockquote>
<p>  Tell that to Slobo.</p>
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		<title>By: Susie Madrak</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93589</link>
		<dc:creator>Susie Madrak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Just so you know, James: You&#039;re wrong.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/

I&#039;m surprised this is news to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just so you know, James: You're wrong.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/" rel="nofollow">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/</a></p>
<p>I'm surprised this is news to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Stormy70</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_considers_weakening_war_crimes_act/comment-page-1/#comment-93584</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormy70</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is a set up for the Dems in the fall. You will see Dems calling for more rights for terrorists, and slamming the military. All the while, the Republicans will be saying, &quot;The Cut and Run party wants to slander the fine men and women in the military and convey rights to terrorists who run around beheading and killing innocent people.&quot;
This is good politics for the run up to the midterms. I really don&#039;t care about terrorists being humilated, and most Americans agree with me. 

Plus, the Dems will have to go left or face the wrath of the nutroots in their party. Michael Moore has already threatened other Dems this morning. Karl Rove could not have scripted this better for the fall elections, with the huge assist the Lamont primary win gives Republicans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a set up for the Dems in the fall. You will see Dems calling for more rights for terrorists, and slamming the military. All the while, the Republicans will be saying, "The Cut and Run party wants to slander the fine men and women in the military and convey rights to terrorists who run around beheading and killing innocent people."<br />
This is good politics for the run up to the midterms. I really don't care about terrorists being humilated, and most Americans agree with me. </p>
<p>Plus, the Dems will have to go left or face the wrath of the nutroots in their party. Michael Moore has already threatened other Dems this morning. Karl Rove could not have scripted this better for the fall elections, with the huge assist the Lamont primary win gives Republicans.</p>
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