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	<title>Comments on: Bush Violates Papal Protocol</title>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132809</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 23:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132809</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I still haven&#039;t gotten around to referring to Marvin Hagler as &quot;Marvelous&quot; even though he changed his name much longer ago.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Who?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I still haven't gotten around to referring to Marvin Hagler as "Marvelous" even though he changed his name much longer ago.</p></blockquote>
<p>Who?</p>
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		<title>By: The Carpetbagger Report &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Monday&#8217;s Mini-Report</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132790</link>
		<dc:creator>The Carpetbagger Report &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Monday&#8217;s Mini-Report</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132790</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] * Speaking of Bush, the president apparently broke protocol in Rome over the weekend, referring to the pope a &#8220;sir,&#8221; instead of the expected &#8220;His Holiness.&#8221; The remark reportedly drew gasps from the Italian press. [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] * Speaking of Bush, the president apparently broke protocol in Rome over the weekend, referring to the pope a &#8220;sir,&#8221; instead of the expected &#8220;His Holiness.&#8221; The remark reportedly drew gasps from the Italian press. [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132640</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132640</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;James, why do you keep referring to him as &quot;Ratzinger&quot; when he has taken the name &quot;Benedict&quot; now?&lt;/em&gt;

I still haven&#039;t gotten around to referring to Marvin Hagler as &quot;Marvelous&quot; even though he changed his name much longer ago. Call me a creature of habit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>James, why do you keep referring to him as "Ratzinger" when he has taken the name "Benedict" now?</em></p>
<p>I still haven't gotten around to referring to Marvin Hagler as "Marvelous" even though he changed his name much longer ago. Call me a creature of habit.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132637</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132637</guid>
		<description>Ok, I don&#039;t see why anyone is upset that Bush referred to the Pope as &quot;Sir&quot;.  But James, why do you keep referring to him as &quot;Ratzinger&quot; when he has taken the name &quot;Benedict&quot; now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I don't see why anyone is upset that Bush referred to the Pope as "Sir".  But James, why do you keep referring to him as "Ratzinger" when he has taken the name "Benedict" now?</p>
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		<title>By: Boyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132635</link>
		<dc:creator>Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132635</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just shocked that protocol can be so warped as to regard the use of &quot;sir&quot; a breach.

Also, speaking as a (displaced) Texan, it&#039;s kinda ingrained in us that the affirmative response to a question from a man is &quot;yessir.&quot; This is the first time I&#039;ve ever heard of that response being considered anything but respectful.

But hell, I&#039;m just one of those unintelligent, tactless Texans, so I have more opportunities to learn and improve than all those other smart, tactful folks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm just shocked that protocol can be so warped as to regard the use of "sir" a breach.</p>
<p>Also, speaking as a (displaced) Texan, it's kinda ingrained in us that the affirmative response to a question from a man is "yessir." This is the first time I've ever heard of that response being considered anything but respectful.</p>
<p>But hell, I'm just one of those unintelligent, tactless Texans, so I have more opportunities to learn and improve than all those other smart, tactful folks.</p>
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		<title>By: Stormy Dragon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132632</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormy Dragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132632</guid>
		<description>Another hypothetical: how should one address Perez Musharraf?  He styles himself as the President of Pakistan, despite the fact he is clearly not a President by any meaningful definition of the word.  Ought he be addressed as Mr. President?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another hypothetical: how should one address Perez Musharraf?  He styles himself as the President of Pakistan, despite the fact he is clearly not a President by any meaningful definition of the word.  Ought he be addressed as Mr. President?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin T. Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132629</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin T. Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132629</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not convinced that we have to do whatever is &quot;established procedure&quot;, especially if it makes no sense. Why, exactly, do some people get to be called whatever absurd title they assign themselves, and others not?

If I declare I am to be addressed as &quot;Your &lt;em&gt;Supremest&lt;/em&gt; Holiness, Pope-above-Popes&quot;, is Ratzinger going to comply? If not, why should I play his silly games, either? (Note that &quot;because he&#039;s [gasp, swoon] the &lt;em&gt;Pope&lt;/em&gt;&quot; is no answer. I&#039;m the Supremest Holiness Pope-above-Popes, and on just as much authority.)

Those kinds of gestures are especially inappropriate for members of other religions. There are at least some gestures of submission that Bush, as a Methodist or whatever, is prohibited from making to the Catholic Pope; granting the Pope a title more exalted than the ones claimed by his own religious leaders is understandably objectionable on the same grounds. Even though it was probably just cluelessness on his part, in this case, and possibly for the first time, I have to say that Bush did the right thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm not convinced that we have to do whatever is "established procedure", especially if it makes no sense. Why, exactly, do some people get to be called whatever absurd title they assign themselves, and others not?</p>
<p>If I declare I am to be addressed as "Your <em>Supremest</em> Holiness, Pope-above-Popes", is Ratzinger going to comply? If not, why should I play his silly games, either? (Note that "because he's [gasp, swoon] the <em>Pope</em>" is no answer. I'm the Supremest Holiness Pope-above-Popes, and on just as much authority.)</p>
<p>Those kinds of gestures are especially inappropriate for members of other religions. There are at least some gestures of submission that Bush, as a Methodist or whatever, is prohibited from making to the Catholic Pope; granting the Pope a title more exalted than the ones claimed by his own religious leaders is understandably objectionable on the same grounds. Even though it was probably just cluelessness on his part, in this case, and possibly for the first time, I have to say that Bush did the right thing.</p>
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		<title>By: You go Bush! Who the hell is the Pope. Nothing but a man wearing a funning fish hat. He is still Ratzinger, former member of the Nazi youth! &#171; A Moveable Feast</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132621</link>
		<dc:creator>You go Bush! Who the hell is the Pope. Nothing but a man wearing a funning fish hat. He is still Ratzinger, former member of the Nazi youth! &#171; A Moveable Feast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132621</guid>
		<description>[...] Bush Violates Papal Protocol  —  People are apparently upset that President Bush violated protocol in his meeting with Joe Ratzinger this morning. … This causes gasps?  Really?  —  Bush isn&#8217;t Catholic.  He&#8217;s the leader of the dominant country on the planet. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bush Violates Papal Protocol  —  People are apparently upset that President Bush violated protocol in his meeting with Joe Ratzinger this morning. … This causes gasps?  Really?  —  Bush isn&#8217;t Catholic.  He&#8217;s the leader of the dominant country on the planet. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132616</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132616</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;At least he didn&#039;t try to give the Pope a shoulder rub.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
As long as he followed official Catholic shoulder rubbing protocol, I think that would have been fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>At least he didn't try to give the Pope a shoulder rub.</p></blockquote>
<p>As long as he followed official Catholic shoulder rubbing protocol, I think that would have been fine.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael van der Galien</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132610</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael van der Galien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132610</guid>
		<description>Dr. Joyner,

I understand your reasoning but I think that your two commenters Kenny and Ten Jones explained it quite well: in this particular surrounding Bush &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; refer to the Pope as Your Holiness, not &quot;sir.&quot; Again, whether or not Bush considers the Pope to be holy is quite irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Joyner,</p>
<p>I understand your reasoning but I think that your two commenters Kenny and Ten Jones explained it quite well: in this particular surrounding Bush <em>should</em> refer to the Pope as Your Holiness, not "sir." Again, whether or not Bush considers the Pope to be holy is quite irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: kenny</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132607</link>
		<dc:creator>kenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132607</guid>
		<description>&quot;I wouldn’t think the head of other churches would address Ratzinger as “Your Holiness” nor would another monarch address QEII as “Your Majesty.”&quot;

In a situation where they&#039;re representing their respective countries/churches ? Of course they   do and they&#039;d expect the same courtesy back. 

So the pope calls (for example) the Head of the Syrian Orthodox Church &quot;Your Holiness&quot; and the pope is in return called &#039;Your Holiness&#039;. 


In this case Bush wasn&#039;t meeting the Pope as a private citizen, but as Head of State was meeting another Head of State (and as a guest). 


Now in this case , no breach of protocol was meant (nor i think would it have been perceived as such). However the point remains , that it is good manners to follow protocol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I wouldn&rsquo;t think the head of other churches would address Ratzinger as “Your Holiness” nor would another monarch address QEII as “Your Majesty.”"</p>
<p>In a situation where they're representing their respective countries/churches ? Of course they   do and they'd expect the same courtesy back. </p>
<p>So the pope calls (for example) the Head of the Syrian Orthodox Church "Your Holiness" and the pope is in return called 'Your Holiness'. </p>
<p>In this case Bush wasn't meeting the Pope as a private citizen, but as Head of State was meeting another Head of State (and as a guest). </p>
<p>Now in this case , no breach of protocol was meant (nor i think would it have been perceived as such). However the point remains , that it is good manners to follow protocol.</p>
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		<title>By: Silly Memes #147: Bush Disrespects The Pope at Conservative Times--Republican GOP news source.</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132603</link>
		<dc:creator>Silly Memes #147: Bush Disrespects The Pope at Conservative Times--Republican GOP news source.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132603</guid>
		<description>[...] James Joyner makes the point that Bush is not Catholic, while Michael van der Galien claims that anyone addressing the Pope should use the response &#8220;Your Holiness&#8221; (not &#8220;His Holiness&#8221;, as the grammar-challenged reporters of News24 would have it) out of etiquette. Both miss the point. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] James Joyner makes the point that Bush is not Catholic, while Michael van der Galien claims that anyone addressing the Pope should use the response &#8220;Your Holiness&#8221; (not &#8220;His Holiness&#8221;, as the grammar-challenged reporters of News24 would have it) out of etiquette. Both miss the point. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Captain's Quarters</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132602</link>
		<dc:creator>Captain's Quarters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132602</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Silly Memes #147: Bush Disrespects The Pope...&lt;/strong&gt;

It&#039;s a measure of George Bush&#039;s impact and visibility that every little action gets wide exposure and viewed outside of context. It&#039;s also a measure of his low popularity that some of these get used to paint him in the......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Silly Memes #147: Bush Disrespects The Pope...</strong></p>
<p>It's a measure of George Bush's impact and visibility that every little action gets wide exposure and viewed outside of context. It's also a measure of his low popularity that some of these get used to paint him in the......</p>
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		<title>By: Disrespecting the Pope &#187; The Moderate Voice</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132587</link>
		<dc:creator>Disrespecting the Pope &#187; The Moderate Voice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132587</guid>
		<description>[...] James Joyner defends Bush by writing, &#8220;Bush isn’t Catholic. He’s the leader of the dominant country on the planet. Aside from the age gap, it’s rather remarkable that he’s addressing the pope as &#8216;Sir.&#8217; Why on earth should he address him in the third person, let alone pretend that he considers him &#8216;holy&#8217;?&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] James Joyner defends Bush by writing, &#8220;Bush isn&rsquo;t Catholic. He&rsquo;s the leader of the dominant country on the planet. Aside from the age gap, it&rsquo;s rather remarkable that he&rsquo;s addressing the pope as &#8216;Sir.&#8217; Why on earth should he address him in the third person, let alone pretend that he considers him &#8216;holy&#8217;?&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Disrespecting the Pope &#171; Michael P.F. van der Galiën</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/bush_violates_papal_protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132575</link>
		<dc:creator>Disrespecting the Pope &#171; Michael P.F. van der Galiën</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/bush_violates_papal_protocol/#comment-132575</guid>
		<description>[...] James Joyner defends Bush by writing, &#8220;Bush isn’t Catholic. He’s the leader of the dominant country on the planet. Aside from the age gap, it’s rather remarkable that he’s addressing the pope as &#8216;Sir.&#8217; Why on earth should he address him in the third person, let alone pretend that he considers him &#8216;holy&#8217;?&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] James Joyner defends Bush by writing, &#8220;Bush isn&rsquo;t Catholic. He&rsquo;s the leader of the dominant country on the planet. Aside from the age gap, it&rsquo;s rather remarkable that he&rsquo;s addressing the pope as &#8216;Sir.&#8217; Why on earth should he address him in the third person, let alone pretend that he considers him &#8216;holy&#8217;?&#8221; [...]</p>
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