Jonah has a point...., and it is pure hypocrisy.

He does not mind forcing the poorest people in our country to "earn" their welfare checks, BUT...

When it comes to making our most well-to-do citizens "earn" their government subsidized educations????????

"OH MY GOD, IT'S SLAVERY!!!!!!!"

No shit. It's blowing my mind that conservatives are objecting to this. I understand, if you're very very very stupid, that you can understand what Obama said as 'And children will be forced to work in coal mines'.

Instead of how everyone else heard it, 'Children, if they choose, can work to earn money for college at approximate 40 dollars an hour doing easy stuff like repainting park benches that we pay people seven dollars an hour normally to do. And likewise people in college accepting such money would also be required to do some work to get more of it.'. (Although, admittedly, it would actually be a loan, so it's not actually that high a pay-rate.)

I did not suspect there were so many very very very stupid people out there, however, nor that so many conservatives would suddenly object to turning an existing program that gives free money to people, and making it where only civic-minded people get the money in return for responsible community work. Who knew?

A justified war or an unjustified one? Kind of makes a difference to some of us

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Justified by whose lights? Yours? As Boyd correctly points out, your terms seem different.

And no, you really didn't answer the question I put as regards the draft. We seem to be dealing here with another Democrat double standard as regards involuntary servitude, one you're ignoring.

That's fine in general. But when the specific law wants me to go overseas and kill other people, without a damn good justification, then I really hope my conscience isn't held hostage by the system's institutional resistance to change.

Well said. One of our county's great men, Muhammad Ali, put his ass on the line for his beliefs in just such a case. Would that there were more like him...

That is not what most of us mean when we say we love our country. We do mean the total set of things inside the boundary--loved ones, loved land, loved cities, states and the nation, including the founding ideas of the nation, and the governing bodies, with all of their current imperfections, that, even so, are far better than any other nation on earth.

That is, something worth fighting for.

That's fine in general. But when the specific law wants me to go overseas and kill other people, without a damn good justification, then I really hope my conscience isn't held hostage by the system's institutional resistance to change.

You mean that the law is the law? How droll! Or do you mean that your moral compass is pointing South when it should be pointing North?

You certainly must decide for yourself whether the cause is worth it, but I submit that you will never obtain enough information to satisfy your conscience fully.

Most of us, I believe, can see the reasoning behind any given conflict well enough to sign up to fight, without any huge analysis.

I guess what I am reading is that some men do not see it, or want to see it, perhaps for hidden fears that they would be the ones killed, not doing any killing themselves. Not very morally uplifting, that!

We fundamentally disagree on the terms, Alex. I daresay we have different definitions of honor, too.

I think you accidentally read my response as coming from Alex. I'm not trying to put words in his mouth.

Second, it totally ignores the love of country one has and cultivates--one of those intangibles that many people have, and live with.

And why is country a thing to be loved? It is nothing more than a conspiracy of cartographers. Dotted lines dividing an indivisible world. At best "country" is a useful means of categorization, at worst it is the motive for atrocity.

Third, it degrades the service many have given for love of country, even volunteered to serve in a dangerous war.

Personally I would say any sacrifice made for something as ephemeral and alien as "country" deserves to be denigrated. Now sacrifice for real actual people? That's a different matter.

There are a number of people I'd kill to protect, and risk death or injury in the process. There are even a few intangible concepts that make the list (not many but a few). But a country? An arbitrary slab of land that exists to dispute the resource rights of neighboring people? No.

Not much point in trying to continue the conversation.

Patriotism is "the belief that your country is best just because you were born there" (George Bernard Shaw? Ambrose Bierce?

At least this makes one think why it is objectionable!

First, it is cynical, as GBS was, which makes me lean to his authorship.

Second, it totally ignores the love of country one has and cultivates--one of those intangibles that many people have, and live with.

Third, it degrades the service many have given for love of country, even volunteered to serve in a dangerous war.

I do not believe these ideas are claptrap, as some here have indicated.

It's a lot like honor (in fact, is a form of honor)

I'd dispute that patriotism is anything like honor. I'd also dispute that it is internal. On the contrary it very much can be trained. Patriotism is "the belief that your country is best just because you were born there" (George Bernard Shaw? Ambrose Bierce? I've seen the quote attributed to different people). That's it really. It gets dressed up in all kinds of romantic garbage but underneath is nothing more than a declaration of personal importance.

Jonah has a point...., and it is pure hypocrisy.

He does not mind forcing the poorest people in our country to "earn" their welfare checks, BUT...

When it comes to making our most well-to-do citizens "earn" their government subsidized educations????????

"OH MY GOD, IT'S SLAVERY!!!!!!!"

If he (and all other like minded individuals) don't like the deal, they can send their children overseas and pay the FULL price of their education.... And stop sucking off the tit of my hard earned dollars. I work harder in one day than most of them do in a week. F*** them.

As Warren Buffet said, "It IS class warfare, and we are winning."

And as has been demonstrated by many of the comments in this thread, it's up to each of us to draw our own lines, to set our own priorities.

With all this pointless side discussion, we've gone far afield from my original response, which was, admittedly, incomplete. Patriotism comes from within. It can be "trained" to a certain extent, but the individual ultimately decides for himself. It's a lot like honor (in fact, is a form of honor): it can't be imposed from the outside, it can only come from within the individual.

The reason virtually everyone connected in any way with the military since the inception of the all-volunteer force scoffs at the idea of a draft is because we know the AVF works immensely better than conscription.

Likewise, if you want to serve, be it in the military or in another type service, it's generally counterproductive to coerce that service.

Just because one is a big believer in service to my country, it doesn't mean one believes that service should be compulsory. As I said before, honor cannot be imposed.

Sorry if that was a bit (or a lot) rambling, but I hope I made my position clear.

Being a volunteer is wonderful. But it has to be free will. Forced service is very close to slavery....