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	<title>Comments on: Formerly Silent Vet-Journalist Supports Kerry</title>
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		<title>By: blog.mintruth.com</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22755</link>
		<dc:creator>blog.mintruth.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22755</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Swift Boat Veterans for Lying&lt;/strong&gt;
Well, I haven&#039;t really discussed this topic enough. The so-called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has plenty of supporters, but then again there are plenty of normal people who disagree and see their true purpose. Then of course there are the smart pe...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Swift Boat Veterans for Lying</strong><br />
Well, I haven't really discussed this topic enough. The so-called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has plenty of supporters, but then again there are plenty of normal people who disagree and see their true purpose. Then of course there are the smart pe...</p>
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		<title>By: Sigivald</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22705</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigivald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22705</guid>
		<description>Dave: They could? Maybe. Reall,y what James said.

And, of course, that would be &lt;i&gt;ILLEGAL&lt;/i&gt;.
And you&#039;d have a fit about that, wouldn&#039;t you?

See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalcenter.org/McCainFeingold.html&quot;&gt;McCain-Feingold&lt;/a&gt; bill, Sec. 205 (a)(1)(c)(ix).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: They could? Maybe. Reall,y what James said.</p>
<p>And, of course, that would be <i>ILLEGAL</i>.<br />
And you'd have a fit about that, wouldn't you?</p>
<p>See <a href="http://www.nationalcenter.org/McCainFeingold.html">McCain-Feingold</a> bill, Sec. 205 (a)(1)(c)(ix).</p>
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		<title>By: The Pink Flamingo Bar Grill</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22652</link>
		<dc:creator>The Pink Flamingo Bar Grill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22652</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Fact Checking Rood &lt;/strong&gt;
This is being spun as some sort of contradiction to the story the Swift Boat Vets told of John Kerry&#039;s silver star award. But its not, it&#039;s not even close to being a contradiction. Lets take a look together.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Fact Checking Rood </strong><br />
This is being spun as some sort of contradiction to the story the Swift Boat Vets told of John Kerry's silver star award. But its not, it's not even close to being a contradiction. Lets take a look together.</p>
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		<title>By: The Unusual Suspects</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22650</link>
		<dc:creator>The Unusual Suspects</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22650</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Swift Boat Vet Roundup&lt;/strong&gt;
Bill O&#039;Reily says this is a bad idea.

About Kerry&#039;s Silver Star.  

These two articles pretty much show what I feel about the Swift Boat Vets for Truth.  Their first ad was in poor taste, espicially because it has now turned into a he said, she ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Swift Boat Vet Roundup</strong><br />
Bill O'Reily says this is a bad idea.</p>
<p>About Kerry's Silver Star.  </p>
<p>These two articles pretty much show what I feel about the Swift Boat Vets for Truth.  Their first ad was in poor taste, espicially because it has now turned into a he said, she ...</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22636</link>
		<dc:creator>ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22636</guid>
		<description>Hmmmm.

1. The Vietnam War, and how it was treated by the mainstream press and anti-war activists, has been a festering wound for decades.  It has always needed to be thrashed out and now it will be.  Not only will this NOT go away, the intensity and temper will only increase.  I fully expect further participation by more Vietnam veterans as the discussion blooms.  Additionally this remains the absolute last time that Vietnam is going to be relevant.  After this the book on Vietnam will be considered by all to be closed.  This is the last opportunity for Vietnam veterans to make their case.

Expect protest marches by Vietnam veterans prior to Nov.  This will get very very very ugly.  Many of the Vietnam War anti-war activists are in the DNC and certainly the most visible ones.

2. &quot; GWB/Karl Rove could stop them with 1 phone call if they wanted.&quot;

Obviously you don&#039;t know anything about McCain/Feingold.  M-F, an interesting and highly appropriate abbreviation IMHO, precludes coordination by any campaign and any 527 group.  If the President or any member of the Bush campaign actually ordered the SwiftVets to stop running ads, and they complied, then that would PROVE coordination and result in FEC sanctions.

I.e. the reason why Kerry is demanding that the Bush campaign stop the SwiftVets ads is because they know it would be illegal for the Bush campaign to do so.  

3. &quot;Oneil has said repeatedly that theyâre going to proceed regardless of what the GOP wants.&quot;

I agree.  I think this is the last hurrah for Vietnam veterans and nothing is going to stand in their way.

4. &quot; Actually, Iâm still waiting for my copy (might have come to my office address today, dunno).&quot;

I got my copy and read it several times.  From the perspective of a former USMC infantryman, from the 1980&#039;s not the Vietnam era, I can say with perfect honesty that Kerry came off as cowardly undisciplined backstabbing suckup.  Since the Kerry campaign has still not refuted those allegations and instead has concentrated on attacking the reputations of the SwiftVets, I&#039;m tending to consider that their allegations might be completely true.

5. &quot; The medal flap was an introduction. Cambodia a clear case of exaggeration if not misrepresentation.&quot;

Actually it seems that Kerry, in more than 50 occasions, has used that story to puff up his resume for election purposes or has used it as the rhetorical equivalent of a sledgehammer.  The speech on the Senate floor in 1986 is a prime example of the latter.

6. &quot; This is a losing argument for the Presidentâbut no one said this more eloquently than Ken Layne:&quot;

To yet another person who feels they have to include vast amounts of text rather than simply linking:

Don&#039;t waste my time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmm.</p>
<p>1. The Vietnam War, and how it was treated by the mainstream press and anti-war activists, has been a festering wound for decades.  It has always needed to be thrashed out and now it will be.  Not only will this NOT go away, the intensity and temper will only increase.  I fully expect further participation by more Vietnam veterans as the discussion blooms.  Additionally this remains the absolute last time that Vietnam is going to be relevant.  After this the book on Vietnam will be considered by all to be closed.  This is the last opportunity for Vietnam veterans to make their case.</p>
<p>Expect protest marches by Vietnam veterans prior to Nov.  This will get very very very ugly.  Many of the Vietnam War anti-war activists are in the DNC and certainly the most visible ones.</p>
<p>2. " GWB/Karl Rove could stop them with 1 phone call if they wanted."</p>
<p>Obviously you don't know anything about McCain/Feingold.  M-F, an interesting and highly appropriate abbreviation IMHO, precludes coordination by any campaign and any 527 group.  If the President or any member of the Bush campaign actually ordered the SwiftVets to stop running ads, and they complied, then that would PROVE coordination and result in FEC sanctions.</p>
<p>I.e. the reason why Kerry is demanding that the Bush campaign stop the SwiftVets ads is because they know it would be illegal for the Bush campaign to do so.  </p>
<p>3. "Oneil has said repeatedly that theyâre going to proceed regardless of what the GOP wants."</p>
<p>I agree.  I think this is the last hurrah for Vietnam veterans and nothing is going to stand in their way.</p>
<p>4. " Actually, Iâm still waiting for my copy (might have come to my office address today, dunno)."</p>
<p>I got my copy and read it several times.  From the perspective of a former USMC infantryman, from the 1980's not the Vietnam era, I can say with perfect honesty that Kerry came off as cowardly undisciplined backstabbing suckup.  Since the Kerry campaign has still not refuted those allegations and instead has concentrated on attacking the reputations of the SwiftVets, I'm tending to consider that their allegations might be completely true.</p>
<p>5. " The medal flap was an introduction. Cambodia a clear case of exaggeration if not misrepresentation."</p>
<p>Actually it seems that Kerry, in more than 50 occasions, has used that story to puff up his resume for election purposes or has used it as the rhetorical equivalent of a sledgehammer.  The speech on the Senate floor in 1986 is a prime example of the latter.</p>
<p>6. " This is a losing argument for the Presidentâbut no one said this more eloquently than Ken Layne:"</p>
<p>To yet another person who feels they have to include vast amounts of text rather than simply linking:</p>
<p>Don't waste my time.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22628</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22628</guid>
		<description>Dave: That&#039;s likely not true.  Oneil has said repeatedly that they&#039;re going to proceed regardless of what the GOP wants.  More importantly, though, any formal communication would almost certainly be illegal coordination under McCain-Feingold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: That's likely not true.  Oneil has said repeatedly that they're going to proceed regardless of what the GOP wants.  More importantly, though, any formal communication would almost certainly be illegal coordination under McCain-Feingold.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22627</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22627</guid>
		<description>GWB/Karl Rove could stop them with 1 phone call if they wanted.  The emperor rules with an iron fist to the party faithful (either your with me or against me).

Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GWB/Karl Rove could stop them with 1 phone call if they wanted.  The emperor rules with an iron fist to the party faithful (either your with me or against me).</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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		<title>By: Beldar</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22618</link>
		<dc:creator>Beldar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22618</guid>
		<description>Actually, I&#039;m still waiting for my copy (might have come to my office address today, dunno).  But I appreciate the link, and as always, enjoy your thoughtful analysis, Dr. Joyner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I'm still waiting for my copy (might have come to my office address today, dunno).  But I appreciate the link, and as always, enjoy your thoughtful analysis, Dr. Joyner.</p>
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		<title>By: vnjagvet</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22616</link>
		<dc:creator>vnjagvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22616</guid>
		<description>The only thing wrong with Barry&#039;s post is that it ignores a significant percentage of veterans&#039; deep-seated antipathy to Kerry&#039;s post Vietnam activities while he was still a commissioned reserve officer.

The second SwiftVETS ad captures that in one dramatic minute.

A perusal of the discussion threads on Roger Simon&#039;s blog captures this reaction in great detail.  These are not right wing extremists. Attacking them for those feelings will be counterproductive.

The medal flap was an introduction.  Cambodia a clear case of exaggeration if not misrepresentation.  The Senate testimony and Winter Soldier activities while a commissioned officer is the last straw.

This will not go away IMO.  And Bush will stay as far away from it as possible. For the SwiftVets, it ain&#039;t political, it&#039;s &quot;business&quot; (in the Godfather sense).

Bush can&#039;t stop them if he wants to.  I know. I am advising one of them (an Annapolis grad, successful entrepreneur who has voted for as many democratic presidential candidates as republican).  BTW, I am a Vietnam vet (JAG 1967-68 IFFV) and have actively supported Sam Nunn, Jimmy Carter (twice), Zell Miller, Wyche Fowler, Max Cleland and most recently Congresswoman Denise Majette all mainstream democrats.

This is not going away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only thing wrong with Barry's post is that it ignores a significant percentage of veterans' deep-seated antipathy to Kerry's post Vietnam activities while he was still a commissioned reserve officer.</p>
<p>The second SwiftVETS ad captures that in one dramatic minute.</p>
<p>A perusal of the discussion threads on Roger Simon's blog captures this reaction in great detail.  These are not right wing extremists. Attacking them for those feelings will be counterproductive.</p>
<p>The medal flap was an introduction.  Cambodia a clear case of exaggeration if not misrepresentation.  The Senate testimony and Winter Soldier activities while a commissioned officer is the last straw.</p>
<p>This will not go away IMO.  And Bush will stay as far away from it as possible. For the SwiftVets, it ain't political, it's "business" (in the Godfather sense).</p>
<p>Bush can't stop them if he wants to.  I know. I am advising one of them (an Annapolis grad, successful entrepreneur who has voted for as many democratic presidential candidates as republican).  BTW, I am a Vietnam vet (JAG 1967-68 IFFV) and have actively supported Sam Nunn, Jimmy Carter (twice), Zell Miller, Wyche Fowler, Max Cleland and most recently Congresswoman Denise Majette all mainstream democrats.</p>
<p>This is not going away.</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22613</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22613</guid>
		<description>Riiiiiiiiiight, Barry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Riiiiiiiiiight, Barry.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Ritholtz</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22606</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Ritholtz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22606</guid>
		<description>This is a losing argument for the President -- but no one said this more eloquently than Ken Layne:

&lt;br&gt;
&lt;b&gt;The God of War, Death &amp; Madness&lt;/b&gt;

Over the course of our Election Discussions last weekend, I warned Blair that the Democrats may be reaching a near-Republican level of cultism -- and that means trouble for Tim&#039;s beloved Bush. 

&quot;And you guys, you formerly cynical guys who now worship the incompetent Bush simply because you were told to do so, you&#039;re only making it easier for the Kerry people to win.&quot; 

Blair, too drunk to follow the entire convoluted sentence, caught on at the end and whimpered, &quot;How so?&quot; 

&quot;Look at you people with this Vietnam boat nonsense. Every day, you&#039;re pounding home the fact that Kerry fought in Vietnam. You jackasses started this stuff so early -- with the &quot;Oh he protested the war&quot; and the Jane Fonda photoshops -- that the Kerry people turned the whole Democratic convention into a celebration of the Vietnam War. Nobody even remembers being against Vietnam anymore. The next Vietnam movie will be a buddy comedy starring Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt, and all they&#039;re going to do is kill Charlie and win medals and dance with beautiful girls. It&#039;ll make $300 million on the opening weekend. They&#039;re going to tear down that bummer memorial in Washington and put up a 1,000-foot statue of a smiling American soldier proudly standing on a stack of golden skulls. You morons have made Vietnam the Democrats&#039; favorite memory and greatest victory. Then you scream hooray when a gang of addled old Nixon bagmen show up in a teevee commercial to bitch about Kerry fighting in Vietnam , and once again the normal people with lives only remember, again, that Kerry fought in Vietnam and Bush didn&#039;t.&quot; 

&quot;But,&quot; Tim sputtered, &quot;Kerry clearly claimed he was in Cambodia several days before he was in Cambodia. It was seared--&quot; 

&quot;Stop that,&quot; I said, poking his neck with the corkscrew worm. &quot;Listen to yourself. What are you doing, again? That&#039;s right, you&#039;re reminding people that the other guy fought in Vietnam. Have you become so brain dead that you think this helps your girly boy Bush? Do you honestly believe the coward boy can beat the War Monster?&quot; 

Blair tried to shake the confusion from his head. Then his eyes brightened for a moment and he said, &quot;Four months! Kerry was only in Vietnam for four months!&quot; 

&quot;See? You did it again. You people can&#039;t stop reminding everybody that Kerry was in Vietnam, taking lives like your boy eats cookies. Killing people, saving people, holding Life &amp; Death in his hands like a savage gift. He kills the Viet Cong or anybody else he chooses, he saves a U.S. sailor who fell out of the boat, he walks the halls of the Senate deciding who he&#039;ll kill or who he&#039;ll save (http://timblair.spleenville.com/). In Vietnam, Kerry is a death&#039;s head of gruesome power, while your Bush hides in Alabama, a scared little girl. And what did little Bush do in Texas?&quot; 
continues here:  http://kenlayne.com/2004/08/god-of-war-death-madness.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a losing argument for the President -- but no one said this more eloquently than Ken Layne:</p>
<p>
<b>The God of War, Death &#038; Madness</b></p>
<p>Over the course of our Election Discussions last weekend, I warned Blair that the Democrats may be reaching a near-Republican level of cultism -- and that means trouble for Tim's beloved Bush. </p>
<p>"And you guys, you formerly cynical guys who now worship the incompetent Bush simply because you were told to do so, you're only making it easier for the Kerry people to win." </p>
<p>Blair, too drunk to follow the entire convoluted sentence, caught on at the end and whimpered, "How so?" </p>
<p>"Look at you people with this Vietnam boat nonsense. Every day, you're pounding home the fact that Kerry fought in Vietnam. You jackasses started this stuff so early -- with the "Oh he protested the war" and the Jane Fonda photoshops -- that the Kerry people turned the whole Democratic convention into a celebration of the Vietnam War. Nobody even remembers being against Vietnam anymore. The next Vietnam movie will be a buddy comedy starring Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt, and all they're going to do is kill Charlie and win medals and dance with beautiful girls. It'll make $300 million on the opening weekend. They're going to tear down that bummer memorial in Washington and put up a 1,000-foot statue of a smiling American soldier proudly standing on a stack of golden skulls. You morons have made Vietnam the Democrats' favorite memory and greatest victory. Then you scream hooray when a gang of addled old Nixon bagmen show up in a teevee commercial to bitch about Kerry fighting in Vietnam , and once again the normal people with lives only remember, again, that Kerry fought in Vietnam and Bush didn't." </p>
<p>"But," Tim sputtered, "Kerry clearly claimed he was in Cambodia several days before he was in Cambodia. It was seared--" </p>
<p>"Stop that," I said, poking his neck with the corkscrew worm. "Listen to yourself. What are you doing, again? That's right, you're reminding people that the other guy fought in Vietnam. Have you become so brain dead that you think this helps your girly boy Bush? Do you honestly believe the coward boy can beat the War Monster?" </p>
<p>Blair tried to shake the confusion from his head. Then his eyes brightened for a moment and he said, "Four months! Kerry was only in Vietnam for four months!" </p>
<p>"See? You did it again. You people can't stop reminding everybody that Kerry was in Vietnam, taking lives like your boy eats cookies. Killing people, saving people, holding Life &#038; Death in his hands like a savage gift. He kills the Viet Cong or anybody else he chooses, he saves a U.S. sailor who fell out of the boat, he walks the halls of the Senate deciding who he'll kill or who he'll save (<a href="http://timblair.spleenville.com/)" rel="nofollow">http://timblair.spleenville.com/)</a>. In Vietnam, Kerry is a death's head of gruesome power, while your Bush hides in Alabama, a scared little girl. And what did little Bush do in Texas?"<br />
continues here:  <a href="http://kenlayne.com/2004/08/god-of-war-death-madness.html" rel="nofollow">http://kenlayne.com/2004/08/god-of-war-death-madness.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: The Unusual Suspects &#187; Swift Boat Vet Roundup</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/chicago_tribune_anti-kerry_vets_not_there_that_day/comment-page-1/#comment-22649</link>
		<dc:creator>The Unusual Suspects &#187; Swift Boat Vet Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7275#comment-22649</guid>
		<description>[...] ction &#8212; B. Minich, PI @ 8:35 pm  	 	 			Bill O&#8217;Reily says this is a bad idea. 	&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/7275&quot;&gt;About Kerry&#8217;s Silver Star&lt;/a&gt;.   	These two articles pretty much show what I feel about the Swif [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ction &#8212; B. Minich, PI @ 8:35 pm  	 	 			Bill O&#8217;Reily says this is a bad idea. 	<a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/7275">About Kerry&#8217;s Silver Star</a>.   	These two articles pretty much show what I feel about the Swif [...]</p>
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