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	<title>Comments on: CIA Breaks its Code of Silence</title>
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		<title>By: lily</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84977</link>
		<dc:creator>lily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fact-based, pragmatic and realistic sounds good to me.  I can see why people like that would not get along with the Bush admin. but my take is that the fact-impaired, idealistic, reality-avoidant administration is at fault and needs to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fact-based, pragmatic and realistic sounds good to me.  I can see why people like that would not get along with the Bush admin. but my take is that the fact-impaired, idealistic, reality-avoidant administration is at fault and needs to change.</p>
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		<title>By: Herb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84971</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It seems that there are those who do not have any sense of ethics or decency in their bodies. These CIA bureaucrats remind me of a bunch of spoiled brats who can&#039;t have their way, so they take their marbles and go home.

I have never met or known a bureaucrat who did not think they were the foundation of government and knew more that of the common folks who paid the bills for their misdeeds and screw-ups. 

For all practical and fiscal purposes, Bureaucrats are no more than &quot;Wards of the State&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that there are those who do not have any sense of ethics or decency in their bodies. These CIA bureaucrats remind me of a bunch of spoiled brats who can't have their way, so they take their marbles and go home.</p>
<p>I have never met or known a bureaucrat who did not think they were the foundation of government and knew more that of the common folks who paid the bills for their misdeeds and screw-ups. </p>
<p>For all practical and fiscal purposes, Bureaucrats are no more than "Wards of the State".</p>
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		<title>By: Bhoe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84964</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84964</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And itâ��s the natural response of security agents to get people perceived as threats&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know if you have actually seen/heard the exchange.  You can find it here: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/05/04.html#a8164

But if we have reached a point in this country when a citizen is &quot;perceived as a security threat&quot; simply for respectfully and rationally trying to get an honest answer from a shamelessly prevaricating public servant, then we are in a pretty sad state as a country.   This is especially the case when the &quot;preceived security threat&quot; is a harmless old man like McGovern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And itâ��s the natural response of security agents to get people perceived as threats</p></blockquote>
<p>I don't know if you have actually seen/heard the exchange.  You can find it here: <a href="http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/05/04.html#a8164" rel="nofollow">http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/05/04.html#a8164</a></p>
<p>But if we have reached a point in this country when a citizen is "perceived as a security threat" simply for respectfully and rationally trying to get an honest answer from a shamelessly prevaricating public servant, then we are in a pretty sad state as a country.   This is especially the case when the "preceived security threat" is a harmless old man like McGovern.</p>
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		<title>By: LaurenceB</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84957</link>
		<dc:creator>LaurenceB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks James!

I&#039;m more of a lurker than a commenter, and I lean more left (lately) than I do right, but I generally enjoy your blog.  Good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks James!</p>
<p>I'm more of a lurker than a commenter, and I lean more left (lately) than I do right, but I generally enjoy your blog.  Good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: LaurenceB</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84954</link>
		<dc:creator>LaurenceB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>James, as Bhoe stated, there was no &quot;shouting match&quot;.  IMHO, you should probably correct this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, as Bhoe stated, there was no "shouting match".  IMHO, you should probably correct this.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84951</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84951</guid>
		<description>legion:  From Scheiber, as quoted above:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The end of the cold war eroded the CIAâ��s code of silence in two important ways. First, it dampened some of the urgency CIA hands felt in their workaday lives. During the cold war, â��the danger to agents and people operating overseas was clear,â�� says Dick Kerr, the CIAâ��s deputy director in the early â��90s. â��Todayâ��s world is more cloudy, ambiguous.â�� Second, the aftermath of the cold war brought political considerations closer to the CIAâ��s doorstep. The embarrassment of the Aldrich Ames espionage scandal, congressional scrutiny of the Agencyâ��s shady friends, and a general impatience with government secrecy all nudged the CIA toward greater transparency.

[â�¦]

[W]hile the early, Ivy-dominated CIA really was a bastion of liberalism (albeit one tempered by devout anti-communism), the demographics of the Agency shifted dramatically between the late â��60s and the late â��70s. The churning over Vietnam made cold war liberals a dying breed; in their place came a generation of New Left types skeptical of the CIAâ��s shadowy m.o. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Basically, just a radical shift in org culture aided by a sense that the old cloak and dagger routine didn&#039;t matter as much anymore.

Bhoe:  Fair enough on the &quot;shouting match&quot; description.  &quot;Heated discussion&quot; perhaps?  And it&#039;s the natural response of security agents to get people perceived as threats to the boss out of range; that Rummy stopped them indicates that they weren&#039;t his &quot;henchmen&quot; and that nothing sinister was involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>legion:  From Scheiber, as quoted above:</p>
<blockquote><p>The end of the cold war eroded the CIAâ��s code of silence in two important ways. First, it dampened some of the urgency CIA hands felt in their workaday lives. During the cold war, â��the danger to agents and people operating overseas was clear,â�� says Dick Kerr, the CIAâ��s deputy director in the early â��90s. â��Todayâ��s world is more cloudy, ambiguous.â�� Second, the aftermath of the cold war brought political considerations closer to the CIAâ��s doorstep. The embarrassment of the Aldrich Ames espionage scandal, congressional scrutiny of the Agencyâ��s shady friends, and a general impatience with government secrecy all nudged the CIA toward greater transparency.</p>
<p>[â�¦]</p>
<p>[W]hile the early, Ivy-dominated CIA really was a bastion of liberalism (albeit one tempered by devout anti-communism), the demographics of the Agency shifted dramatically between the late â��60s and the late â��70s. The churning over Vietnam made cold war liberals a dying breed; in their place came a generation of New Left types skeptical of the CIAâ��s shadowy m.o. </p></blockquote>
<p>Basically, just a radical shift in org culture aided by a sense that the old cloak and dagger routine didn't matter as much anymore.</p>
<p>Bhoe:  Fair enough on the "shouting match" description.  "Heated discussion" perhaps?  And it's the natural response of security agents to get people perceived as threats to the boss out of range; that Rummy stopped them indicates that they weren't his "henchmen" and that nothing sinister was involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Bhoe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84949</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84949</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;who famously got into a shouting match with Don Rumsfled &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am not sure how you can characterize McGovern&#039;s questioning of Rumsfeld as a &quot;shouting match.&quot;  He asked very reasonable questions without raising his voice during the scheduled Q&amp;A.  Rummy didn&#039;t &quot;shout&quot; either.  Rummy&#039;s henchmen, however, did surround McGovern and were about to kick him out of the lecture hall before Rummy called them off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>who famously got into a shouting match with Don Rumsfled </p></blockquote>
<p>I am not sure how you can characterize McGovern's questioning of Rumsfeld as a "shouting match."  He asked very reasonable questions without raising his voice during the scheduled Q&amp;A.  Rummy didn't "shout" either.  Rummy's henchmen, however, did surround McGovern and were about to kick him out of the lecture hall before Rummy called them off.</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84948</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84948</guid>
		<description>James,
But that still doesn&#039;t explain the lack of isolation current critics are getting vs. the ostracism of the earlier generations Scheiber describes. While there have always been some dissatisfied folk who leave the fold, the ones who are critical now don&#039;t seem to be out of sync with the poeple still working.

And on a side note, I&#039;ve seen a number of people deride the CIA for being &#039;too liberal&#039; due largely to their lack of 100% support for action against Iraq (I&#039;m sorry James, I can&#039;t remember your own position on this). But the timeline you present - Bush Sr good! Clinton bad! Bush Jr good (until Iraq)! - doesn&#039;t match up with a CIA &#039;swinging left&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,<br />
But that still doesn't explain the lack of isolation current critics are getting vs. the ostracism of the earlier generations Scheiber describes. While there have always been some dissatisfied folk who leave the fold, the ones who are critical now don't seem to be out of sync with the poeple still working.</p>
<p>And on a side note, I've seen a number of people deride the CIA for being 'too liberal' due largely to their lack of 100% support for action against Iraq (I'm sorry James, I can't remember your own position on this). But the timeline you present - Bush Sr good! Clinton bad! Bush Jr good (until Iraq)! - doesn't match up with a CIA 'swinging left'.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84946</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84946</guid>
		<description>Charlie: Those words are terms of art in politics, especially the foreign policy community.  For more, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pragmatism&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism#Realism_in_international_relations&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Realism&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie: Those words are terms of art in politics, especially the foreign policy community.  For more, see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism" rel="nofollow">Pragmatism</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism#Realism_in_international_relations" rel="nofollow">Realism</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sed</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84945</link>
		<dc:creator>Sed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84945</guid>
		<description>VIPS and MoveOn.org are political groups founded by CIA operatons officers with a domestic agenda.  We trained these people to perform coups, etc.  They are using their training on us and most Americans are too stupid to see this.  The retired and retiring operations officers are the worst investment we have ever made.  Congress tried to disband CIA and, now, with some deals at DIA, the analysts are going to NSA.  

CIA is a complete loss.  The retirees know this and are trying to avoid ending the agency.

Yes, we all studied groupthink that started at the CIa and, no, I don&#039;t think it is okay CIA accessed everbody&#039;s phone records through NSA/DIA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VIPS and MoveOn.org are political groups founded by CIA operatons officers with a domestic agenda.  We trained these people to perform coups, etc.  They are using their training on us and most Americans are too stupid to see this.  The retired and retiring operations officers are the worst investment we have ever made.  Congress tried to disband CIA and, now, with some deals at DIA, the analysts are going to NSA.  </p>
<p>CIA is a complete loss.  The retirees know this and are trying to avoid ending the agency.</p>
<p>Yes, we all studied groupthink that started at the CIa and, no, I don't think it is okay CIA accessed everbody's phone records through NSA/DIA.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Summers</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84942</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Summers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84942</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;A strong preference for pragmatism and foreign policy realism, while quite mainstream for highly educated foreign affairs experts, is hardly a non-ideology.&lt;/em&gt;

pragmatism: A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.

realism: An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism.

Sounds like the antithesis of ideology (a set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system) to me. But then, seeing things the way they really are and dealing with problems practically with a consideration of the ramifications of any action is so out-of-the-mainstream today, what with everyone filtering everything through their own personal bias and belief system, that I can understand how shocking and even frightening the practice might seem to those on both sides of the political divide. Better to label it an ideology (or &quot;hardly a non-ideology,&quot; which is the same thing) so it&#039;s more easily dismissed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>A strong preference for pragmatism and foreign policy realism, while quite mainstream for highly educated foreign affairs experts, is hardly a non-ideology.</em></p>
<p>pragmatism: A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.</p>
<p>realism: An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism.</p>
<p>Sounds like the antithesis of ideology (a set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system) to me. But then, seeing things the way they really are and dealing with problems practically with a consideration of the ramifications of any action is so out-of-the-mainstream today, what with everyone filtering everything through their own personal bias and belief system, that I can understand how shocking and even frightening the practice might seem to those on both sides of the political divide. Better to label it an ideology (or "hardly a non-ideology," which is the same thing) so it's more easily dismissed.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84938</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84938</guid>
		<description>Legion: Not so.  Basically, they were ecstatic with Bush 41, demoralized under Clinton, ecstatic with another Bush until post 9/11 and the run-up to the Iraq War.  (That&#039;s a synopsis of the piece, not just my own view.) Basically, they&#039;re acting like professionals when the administration&#039;s policy preferences align with theirs and when not, not.  That&#039;s not a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legion: Not so.  Basically, they were ecstatic with Bush 41, demoralized under Clinton, ecstatic with another Bush until post 9/11 and the run-up to the Iraq War.  (That's a synopsis of the piece, not just my own view.) Basically, they're acting like professionals when the administration's policy preferences align with theirs and when not, not.  That's not a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84934</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The story here is not that more ex-spooks are speaking out. The story is that this administration has so demoralized the intel community that the people who &lt;em&gt;are &lt;/em&gt;speaking out &lt;em&gt;aren&#039;t &lt;/em&gt;being turned into personas non grata by everyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The story here is not that more ex-spooks are speaking out. The story is that this administration has so demoralized the intel community that the people who <em>are </em>speaking out <em>aren't </em>being turned into personas non grata by everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84932</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/#comment-84932</guid>
		<description>James, all bureaucracies tend to have some element of groupthink, especially one which is very hierarchical.  I think there are enough intellectually honest people in all agencies who can view any issue dispassionately without ideological bias, based solely on the information at hand, or lack thereof.  Isn&#039;t that what realism is about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, all bureaucracies tend to have some element of groupthink, especially one which is very hierarchical.  I think there are enough intellectually honest people in all agencies who can view any issue dispassionately without ideological bias, based solely on the information at hand, or lack thereof.  Isn't that what realism is about?</p>
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		<title>By: RA</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_breaks_its_code_of_silence/comment-page-1/#comment-84925</link>
		<dc:creator>RA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>These are people who believe they should be running the CIA, not elected officials who are held to be responsible to the voting public.  The left likes the fiction of a democracy but practices totalitarianism eveery chance they get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are people who believe they should be running the CIA, not elected officials who are held to be responsible to the voting public.  The left likes the fiction of a democracy but practices totalitarianism eveery chance they get.</p>
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