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	<title>Comments on: Commuting Ressentiment</title>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173763</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 03:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173763</guid>
		<description>&quot;&quot;What urban areas have you lived in?&quot;&quot;
&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;
 R.ALEX;
      None, thank God! And when I travel I take the by-pass when possible. I do, however find myself compelled to enter a city from time to time. A simple trip to the city usually requires about $50 for tolls and parking and two hours or more to go the 15-20miles from downtown to the city limits when leaving. It is not dificult to keep this boy &quot;down on the farm&quot; and I can see the city lights from here![lol]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>""What urban areas have you lived in?""<br />
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""<br />
 R.ALEX;<br />
      None, thank God! And when I travel I take the by-pass when possible. I do, however find myself compelled to enter a city from time to time. A simple trip to the city usually requires about $50 for tolls and parking and two hours or more to go the 15-20miles from downtown to the city limits when leaving. It is not dificult to keep this boy "down on the farm" and I can see the city lights from here![lol]</p>
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		<title>By: Stormy Dragon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173574</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormy Dragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173574</guid>
		<description>What always suprises me is that whenever people are proposing various fees or taxes to encourage use of mass transit, no one ever points out that what they&#039;re actually arguing is that automobiles are a perk that should be restricted to the wealthy and that the working poor need to be prevented from being able to afford one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What always suprises me is that whenever people are proposing various fees or taxes to encourage use of mass transit, no one ever points out that what they're actually arguing is that automobiles are a perk that should be restricted to the wealthy and that the working poor need to be prevented from being able to afford one.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff b</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173409</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173409</guid>
		<description>An interesting study, which is contrary to the point Peter Jackson is trying to make, was done by Delucchi at UC Davis, who has written hundreds of papers on the topic.

http://www.its.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/delucchi/index.php

Delucchi concludes that the subsidy to motorists is roughly 20-70 cents per gallon of gas, working on the basis that the gas tax is a reasonably direct proxy for road user fees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting study, which is contrary to the point Peter Jackson is trying to make, was done by Delucchi at UC Davis, who has written hundreds of papers on the topic.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.its.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/delucchi/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.its.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/delucchi/index.php</a></p>
<p>Delucchi concludes that the subsidy to motorists is roughly 20-70 cents per gallon of gas, working on the basis that the gas tax is a reasonably direct proxy for road user fees.</p>
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		<title>By: M1EK</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173401</link>
		<dc:creator>M1EK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173401</guid>
		<description>Peter Jackson&#039;s figures are bogus - here&#039;s a link to a recent study on the matter (Delucco):

http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000441.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Jackson's figures are bogus - here's a link to a recent study on the matter (Delucco):</p>
<p><a href="http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000441.html" rel="nofollow">http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000441.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173398</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173398</guid>
		<description>While I don&#039;t have the same sort of philosophical objections to publicly-financed roads that Megan has, I do see federally funded roads as a major problem.  I don&#039;t have  a problem with public roads but I do have a problem with taxing the citizens of New Jersey to pay for roads in Alaska or Hawaii (which have, by definition, no interstate highway traffic).

Note, too, that the Interstate Highway System, as presently constituted comprises an enormous subsidy to real estate developers, car manufacturers, and oil companies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I don't have the same sort of philosophical objections to publicly-financed roads that Megan has, I do see federally funded roads as a major problem.  I don't have  a problem with public roads but I do have a problem with taxing the citizens of New Jersey to pay for roads in Alaska or Hawaii (which have, by definition, no interstate highway traffic).</p>
<p>Note, too, that the Interstate Highway System, as presently constituted comprises an enormous subsidy to real estate developers, car manufacturers, and oil companies.</p>
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		<title>By: JKB</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173351</link>
		<dc:creator>JKB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173351</guid>
		<description>The fact of the matter is that taking public transportation is almost always more time consuming than driving yourself.  Taking two methods, such as the METRO and a bus and you can write off a lot of dead time.  The Poor sacrifice time to save the monetary cost but as the value of an individual&#039;s time increases the likelihood of them driving increases.  Not only is auto travel generally as fast or faster, you do not have to forgo luxuries such as a cup of coffee or the ability to make calls in private.  Also, use of public transportation costs time in that you can&#039;t deviate to handle errands or easily break routine for a sick child.  Unless your life is limited to the transit path.

In general, with subsidized transit, the population sorts into the rich in the urban center, the poor out to the edge of the transit system (within walking distance of stations) then the middle income beyond.  See &lt;a href=&quot;http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/glaeser/papers.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Edward Glaeser&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; paper on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2000papers/HIER1891.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;why the poor live in cities&lt;/a&gt;.  The rich can afford the cost of living in the city center and pay for the convenience of walking to work.  The poor utilize the transit system sacrificing time for cost savings.  The middle class who wish to own a home end up in suburbia and value their time either for economic gain, efficiency or with family to the extent that the cost of fuel and parking overwhelm any subsidized savings from mass transit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact of the matter is that taking public transportation is almost always more time consuming than driving yourself.  Taking two methods, such as the METRO and a bus and you can write off a lot of dead time.  The Poor sacrifice time to save the monetary cost but as the value of an individual's time increases the likelihood of them driving increases.  Not only is auto travel generally as fast or faster, you do not have to forgo luxuries such as a cup of coffee or the ability to make calls in private.  Also, use of public transportation costs time in that you can't deviate to handle errands or easily break routine for a sick child.  Unless your life is limited to the transit path.</p>
<p>In general, with subsidized transit, the population sorts into the rich in the urban center, the poor out to the edge of the transit system (within walking distance of stations) then the middle income beyond.  See <a href="http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/glaeser/papers.html" rel="nofollow">Edward Glaeser's</a> paper on <a href="http://www.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2000papers/HIER1891.pdf" rel="nofollow">why the poor live in cities</a>.  The rich can afford the cost of living in the city center and pay for the convenience of walking to work.  The poor utilize the transit system sacrificing time for cost savings.  The middle class who wish to own a home end up in suburbia and value their time either for economic gain, efficiency or with family to the extent that the cost of fuel and parking overwhelm any subsidized savings from mass transit.</p>
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		<title>By: Triumph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173350</link>
		<dc:creator>Triumph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173350</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Presumably, that&#039;s skewed by bus ridership, which is the only form of public transit outside a handful of densely populated areas.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

According to the report I cited above, for rail riders the stats look like this:

Rail riders are only 42% White, 50.2% have household incomes under $50,000, and 57% have vehicle availability for their trips.

Interestingly, only 38% of bus riders have access to alternative vehicles.

It is also important to remember that bus ridership is huge in many areas with decent rail systems.  In DC, for instance, 470 million trips were taken on buses or bus/rail transfers last year as opposed to just 209 million rail-only trips.

In Chicago, for FY 2005 there were 186 million rail bordings as opposed to 303 million bus bordings.

Interestingly,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Presumably, that's skewed by bus ridership, which is the only form of public transit outside a handful of densely populated areas.</p></blockquote>
<p>According to the report I cited above, for rail riders the stats look like this:</p>
<p>Rail riders are only 42% White, 50.2% have household incomes under $50,000, and 57% have vehicle availability for their trips.</p>
<p>Interestingly, only 38% of bus riders have access to alternative vehicles.</p>
<p>It is also important to remember that bus ridership is huge in many areas with decent rail systems.  In DC, for instance, 470 million trips were taken on buses or bus/rail transfers last year as opposed to just 209 million rail-only trips.</p>
<p>In Chicago, for FY 2005 there were 186 million rail bordings as opposed to 303 million bus bordings.</p>
<p>Interestingly,</p>
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		<title>By: R. Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173332</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173332</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Choosing a car over mass transit, in just about any urban area in this country,is like choosing the stairs over the elevator. There are advantages, but they are seldom worth it.&lt;/i&gt;

What urban areas have you lived in? I grew up in Houston and live near downtown Austin and you&#039;d be crazy to rely on public transportation. Neither city has the public transportation infrastructure, Houston is too spread out, neither city has expensive parking (almost always comes with housing), and there are more job opportunities outside downtown than inside of it (both places).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Choosing a car over mass transit, in just about any urban area in this country,is like choosing the stairs over the elevator. There are advantages, but they are seldom worth it.</i></p>
<p>What urban areas have you lived in? I grew up in Houston and live near downtown Austin and you'd be crazy to rely on public transportation. Neither city has the public transportation infrastructure, Houston is too spread out, neither city has expensive parking (almost always comes with housing), and there are more job opportunities outside downtown than inside of it (both places).</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173326</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173326</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The majority of riders are people of color. The median household income is $39,000--$5000 lower than that of the population as a whole. More than half public transportation riders have household incomes less than $50,000. Only 45.4% have access to a car when deciding to make a transit trip.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Presumably, that&#039;s skewed by bus ridership, which is the only form of public transit outside a handful of densely populated areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The majority of riders are people of color. The median household income is $39,000--$5000 lower than that of the population as a whole. More than half public transportation riders have household incomes less than $50,000. Only 45.4% have access to a car when deciding to make a transit trip.</p></blockquote>
<p>Presumably, that's skewed by bus ridership, which is the only form of public transit outside a handful of densely populated areas.</p>
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		<title>By: M1EK</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173325</link>
		<dc:creator>M1EK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173325</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In the 13 years that I served on our town board, every dime spent on steets was paid for with motor fuel tax money.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Then you live in a very special place indeed. The national numbers clearly state otherwise, and my experience everywhere I&#039;ve lived (3 states) as well as everywhere I&#039;ve cared enough about to research, has been the opposite. Perhaps you could share more details?

The overall subsidy for drivers is orders of magnitude higher than the overall subsidy for transit. And, no, the fact that buses &quot;use the road&quot; doesn&#039;t mean that road spending by non-fuel-tax means is thus just and fair - a transit network using roads would rarely need more than 2 lanes, and would look radically different in other ways as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In the 13 years that I served on our town board, every dime spent on steets was paid for with motor fuel tax money.</p></blockquote>
<p>Then you live in a very special place indeed. The national numbers clearly state otherwise, and my experience everywhere I've lived (3 states) as well as everywhere I've cared enough about to research, has been the opposite. Perhaps you could share more details?</p>
<p>The overall subsidy for drivers is orders of magnitude higher than the overall subsidy for transit. And, no, the fact that buses "use the road" doesn't mean that road spending by non-fuel-tax means is thus just and fair - a transit network using roads would rarely need more than 2 lanes, and would look radically different in other ways as well.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173320</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173320</guid>
		<description>BTW; Busses drive on public roads and most mass transit trains are placed in roadway right-of-ways.
 My guess is that mass transit riders pay a smaller percentage of their travel expenses than drivers pay of theirs, including the share of taxes paid by each for each.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW; Busses drive on public roads and most mass transit trains are placed in roadway right-of-ways.<br />
 My guess is that mass transit riders pay a smaller percentage of their travel expenses than drivers pay of theirs, including the share of taxes paid by each for each.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173318</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173318</guid>
		<description>Choosing a car over mass transit, in just about any urban area in this country,is like choosing the stairs over the elevator. There are advantages, but they are seldom worth it.

 On the other hand if you don&#039;t live in an urban area, the only place mass transit appears is on your TAX bill![lol]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Choosing a car over mass transit, in just about any urban area in this country,is like choosing the stairs over the elevator. There are advantages, but they are seldom worth it.</p>
<p> On the other hand if you don't live in an urban area, the only place mass transit appears is on your TAX bill![lol]</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173313</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173313</guid>
		<description>In the 13 years that I served on our town board, every dime spent on steets was paid for with motor fuel tax money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the 13 years that I served on our town board, every dime spent on steets was paid for with motor fuel tax money.</p>
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		<title>By: Triumph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173308</link>
		<dc:creator>Triumph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173308</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The vast majority of those who take subways and public buses to work make that choice, not out of altruism, but because it makes the most sense to them given their situation. Some simply can’t afford the cost of buying and maintaining a car. Most, though, are simply urban dwellers who live their lives within a very small geographic area where parking is very expensive and driving is very slow and inefficient. For most Americans, conversely, it simply makes no sense to rely on public transit.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

James, What is your data source for these assumptions?

If you look at the recent study by the American Public Transportation Assn. of the demographics of transit riders [A Profile of Public Transportation Passenger Demographics and Travel Characteristics
Reported in On-Board Surveys] you see basic data that contradicts many of your assumptions.  

The majority of riders are people of color.  The median household income is $39,000--$5000 lower than that of the population as a whole.  More than half public transportation riders have household incomes less than $50,000. Only 45.4% have access to a car when deciding to make a transit trip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The vast majority of those who take subways and public buses to work make that choice, not out of altruism, but because it makes the most sense to them given their situation. Some simply can&rsquo;t afford the cost of buying and maintaining a car. Most, though, are simply urban dwellers who live their lives within a very small geographic area where parking is very expensive and driving is very slow and inefficient. For most Americans, conversely, it simply makes no sense to rely on public transit.</p></blockquote>
<p>James, What is your data source for these assumptions?</p>
<p>If you look at the recent study by the American Public Transportation Assn. of the demographics of transit riders [A Profile of Public Transportation Passenger Demographics and Travel Characteristics<br />
Reported in On-Board Surveys] you see basic data that contradicts many of your assumptions.  </p>
<p>The majority of riders are people of color.  The median household income is $39,000--$5000 lower than that of the population as a whole.  More than half public transportation riders have household incomes less than $50,000. Only 45.4% have access to a car when deciding to make a transit trip.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/commuting_ressentiment/comment-page-1/#comment-173307</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/commuting_ressentiment/#comment-173307</guid>
		<description>Absolutely!  And it&#039;s not as if you said you didn&#039;t like Macs or something...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely!  And it's not as if you said you didn't like Macs or something...</p>
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