FWIW, I do appreciate the civil tenor of your comments. I'll try to maintain it.

To the extent that Republicans are responsible it seems as though it is because they want to be like Democrats or at least be liked like Democrats rather than sticking to their principles and telling the hard, honest truths.

and this:

Are you really going to argue that Democrats didn't talk down the economy the last two years? And for partisan reasons?

in the same thread....

This really does smack of "partisan hackery", I mean this employs the same logic as, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

Charles, you are better than this. I do not expect to agree with you on much, but I do expect to follow your logic.

tom p, I don't think it is wise to start every comment with a listing of common agreements. I think the Democrats have a larger share of the blame, but I don't know the exact percentages. To the extent that Republicans are responsible it seems as though it is because they want to be like Democrats or at least be liked like Democrats rather than sticking to their principles and telling the hard, honest truths. But YMMV.

Fundamentally, the good ship Freedom is listing badly to port right now and we better right the vessel quickly.

As I noted above tom p, I am more than happy to let many Republicans take their share of the blame.

Sorry Charles, I just reread your above posts and I find no such reference of blame for those of the GOP who share the blame for this present mess. You have in the past on other threads, but not here.

I just take exception to what is all too often a knee jerk response to blame the "other side" for current difficulties by those from either political philosophy

I don't buy into the grief some people want to give Senator Gramm over the repeal of Glass-Steagall

The blaming of Gramm for the repeal of G-S defies logic. Consider this:

"The final bipartisan bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90-8 (1 not voting) and in the House: 362-57 (15 not voting)."

And then Clinton signed it.

"this economy has deep structural problems"

"shoot the messenger!"

FWIW, Mr. Bernanke just said: "I believe that, overall, the downside risks probably outweigh those on the upside."

Was that bad news, or talking down the economy? Do you have to check Mr. Bernanke's party affiliation too know for sure?

odograph, perception becoming reality is not reductio ad absuurdum. Talking the economy down alone won't bring down the economy, but it will exacerbate an already bad situation and cause people to think things are worse than they are which leads to deeper, ever downward spiralling cycles. I see this constantly right now trying to keep a business going. This is conference and exhibit season for me and the crowds are down from last year, way down. Hell, I've got to conserve cash and limit purchases now because my customers are doing so. Be thankful if you don't have to deal with this every day. Meanwhile, you can poo poo it all you want but they wanted people to think the eceonomy was going to hell in a handbasket and they got their wish.

Anybody want to discuss the Fair Tax?

Recipe for Disaster: The Formula That Killed Wall Street

Michael, I'm not saying all we have to do is inspire more confidence. I will say if we don't inspire business confidence business will continue to delay projects, put off capital expenditures, and avoid new hiring. Without confidence in the future why would they risk any of those things?

Steve I agree that without confidence, business won't spend. What I don't agree with is that the lack of confidence is the fault of negative dialog on behalf of politicians, and not from the "reality on the ground" as it were. After all, the Democrats have been talking down the economy for the past 8 years, at least.

Obama has his magic economic ponies, and you and Bithead have your magic economic fairies. Neither one is going to actually help us.

I will say if we don't inspire business confidence business will continue to delay projects, put off capital expenditures, and avoid new hiring. Without confidence in the future why would they risk any of those things?

And Steve, maybe business has no confidence in the economy, because IT JUST PLAIN SUCKS AND THEY KNOW IT BECAUSE THEY LOOK AT THE NUMBERS JUST LIKE THE REST OF US????

Not picking on you Steve, but I have heard this particular meme time and again, and I have to say, business only cares about gov't on the margins. In other words, what gov't does definitely affects the bottom line because if they put their money here, or put it there, it might cost them a % pt or two... but when business just FREEZES up totally... it is because gov't is no longer in charge, and they don't know which way to place their bets.

Believe me, these guys have been gaming the system for a long time... their fear now is that they can't game the "system" any more.

In other words, consumers don’t see the economy getting better for at least another six months. This fits with what Fed Chairmen Ben Bernanke told the Senate Banking Committee.

Which mimics what the CBO said a few weeks ago even if there was no "stimulus".

Your'e right tom p. It isn't all President Obama, Senator Reid or Congresswoman Pelosi. After all, I wouldn't want Congressman Frank or Senator Dodd to feel as though their contributions to the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac fiascos were left out.

Touche! Charles... well done! Tho that was not my point. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the aisle (actually my comment was directed more at bit than you... I just could not find his comment on a different thread) But I notice you do not direct any of your ire at Gramm, DeLay or McConnell? (not to mention Boehner, Blunt, or.... oh hell, pick your Republican) All I know is that every time I hear a Rep. speak of "We have to pay for this stuff...." I cannot help but remember Cheney saying, "Deficits don't matter..." and the wall of silence that echoed back from the right.