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	<title>Comments on: Crossover Mischief in Michigan</title>
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		<title>By: Watchdog Milwaukee &#187; Michigan is Irrelevant</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-267163</link>
		<dc:creator>Watchdog Milwaukee &#187; Michigan is Irrelevant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Link: Crossover Mischief in Michigan [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Link: Crossover Mischief in Michigan [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Moomaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-266087</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Moomaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That&#039;s the 1972 Democratic primaries.  (I forgot to include the date.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That's the 1972 Democratic primaries.  (I forgot to include the date.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Moomaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-266086</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Moomaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-266086</guid>
		<description>If you want a really spectacular example of the mischief that crossover voters can inflict, consider how George Wallace&#039;s vote in the Democratic primaries in Florida and Michigan (which allow crossovers) was inflated from narrow victories to huge landslides simply because there wasn&#039;t a GOP contest that year and huge numbers of Republicans decided to cross over and vote for Wallace -- some of them to try and sabotage the Democrats, lots of them because they actually liked the SOB.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want a really spectacular example of the mischief that crossover voters can inflict, consider how George Wallace's vote in the Democratic primaries in Florida and Michigan (which allow crossovers) was inflated from narrow victories to huge landslides simply because there wasn't a GOP contest that year and huge numbers of Republicans decided to cross over and vote for Wallace -- some of them to try and sabotage the Democrats, lots of them because they actually liked the SOB.</p>
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		<title>By: R. Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-265823</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-265823</guid>
		<description>I like the way that Texas does it. Anybody can vote in any primary, but once you do your voter registration card is stamped with the party of the primary that you voted in and you&#039;re technically a member of that party. They primarily do this so that you only vote in one party in the general primary and the run-off, but it actually acts as a disincentive. It&#039;s one thing to vote in the other primary to cause mischief, but it&#039;s another to have to formally identify with a party that you hate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the way that Texas does it. Anybody can vote in any primary, but once you do your voter registration card is stamped with the party of the primary that you voted in and you're technically a member of that party. They primarily do this so that you only vote in one party in the general primary and the run-off, but it actually acts as a disincentive. It's one thing to vote in the other primary to cause mischief, but it's another to have to formally identify with a party that you hate.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264585</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264585</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Once the state helps defray the costs than the state can impose conditions.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I actually agree that the parties should pay for these things; Lord knows they have the cash.

The Supreme Court ruled against the California mixed open primary a couple years back, though, so the law&#039;s a bit murky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Once the state helps defray the costs than the state can impose conditions.</p></blockquote>
<p>I actually agree that the parties should pay for these things; Lord knows they have the cash.</p>
<p>The Supreme Court ruled against the California mixed open primary a couple years back, though, so the law's a bit murky.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264572</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264572</guid>
		<description>James,

I usually agree with you but there is a major exception keeping the primaries closed: the financing.  If the parties are willing to conduct their primaries with their own funding and infrastructure than I have no problem keeping them closed.  Once the state helps defray the costs than the state can impose conditions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I usually agree with you but there is a major exception keeping the primaries closed: the financing.  If the parties are willing to conduct their primaries with their own funding and infrastructure than I have no problem keeping them closed.  Once the state helps defray the costs than the state can impose conditions.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264557</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264557</guid>
		<description>Osama&#039;s a democrat?  Funny, I thought all the theocrats were in the other party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Osama's a democrat?  Funny, I thought all the theocrats were in the other party.</p>
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		<title>By: Bandit</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264533</link>
		<dc:creator>Bandit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264533</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Ron Beasley cries Foul, arguing that Democrats would lose the moral high ground they now hold&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The moral high ground they share with Ted Rall, Killer Kennedy, Norman Hsu, Alcee Hastings, Sandy Burglar, Will Jefferson, The Clintons ... I could go on and on but I&#039;d never get to the end until I got to Osama.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Ron Beasley cries Foul, arguing that Democrats would lose the moral high ground they now hold</p></blockquote>
<p>The moral high ground they share with Ted Rall, Killer Kennedy, Norman Hsu, Alcee Hastings, Sandy Burglar, Will Jefferson, The Clintons ... I could go on and on but I'd never get to the end until I got to Osama.</p>
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		<title>By: yetanotherjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264510</link>
		<dc:creator>yetanotherjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264510</guid>
		<description>As I commented on a different thread earlier in the week, the open primary is likely to produce a McCain win.

Yes there will be those who come out to vote just to do mischief in the GOP. Whatever your moral stance on that, its within the rules as written. I think the left&#039;s justification that two wrongs make a write is humorous, but lets be realistic, they are looking for a fig leaf to justify their actions. I especially love the racism involved in denigrating votes for Jackson. I guess the heart of racism in the democratic party that voted against the 1964 civil rights act is alive and well.

Second, as the comments here show, those wanting to do mischief are likely to spread their votes around. Mitt, Ron, Huckabe will all get a point or two, but it isn&#039;t like the nutroots are going to deliver 33% of MI voters.

Third, I suspect that the democrats will have at least as many who go to vote for who they really prefer to who would be worse for the GOP. This will in effect cancel out the mischief voters to leave the independents.

The independents made up 45% of the democratic primary and 37% of the republican primary in NH. The have no reason to vote in the democratic primary in MI (thanks to the DNC) so I suspect that they will vote in the republican primary (of those who would have voted anyway). If they are truly independent they will not be seeing who they can vote for to hurt the GOP, but rather who they think will be best for the country. In NH, according to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/index.html#NHREP&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CNN exit poll&lt;/a&gt; so grab your salt shaker, McCain got 40% of the independent vote, to 27% for Mitt, 13% for Paul, 9% for Huckabee, 6% for Rudy. I suspect we will see similar distribution for MI. McCain got 34% of republican party ID to Mitt&#039;s 35% so it was a wash there. 

Certainly MI is different from NH, but I suspect that the independents are likely to be somewhat the same. Of course, this will all be known soon.

As to open vs closed primary, I can see both sides to this. So I would leave it up to the parties to decide which they prefer. The problem really only comes up when one party has a boring primary (usually the party in the White House) or the special case of this year the DNC making the MI contest meaningless. Now if you showed that the DNC made the MI contest meaningless in order to push democrats to vote in the republican primary for the &quot;worst&quot; republican candidate, then I would want to revisit the issue. But you would have to be the sort to assume Clinton stole the NH election through diebold to start believing that level of conspiracy theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I commented on a different thread earlier in the week, the open primary is likely to produce a McCain win.</p>
<p>Yes there will be those who come out to vote just to do mischief in the GOP. Whatever your moral stance on that, its within the rules as written. I think the left's justification that two wrongs make a write is humorous, but lets be realistic, they are looking for a fig leaf to justify their actions. I especially love the racism involved in denigrating votes for Jackson. I guess the heart of racism in the democratic party that voted against the 1964 civil rights act is alive and well.</p>
<p>Second, as the comments here show, those wanting to do mischief are likely to spread their votes around. Mitt, Ron, Huckabe will all get a point or two, but it isn't like the nutroots are going to deliver 33% of MI voters.</p>
<p>Third, I suspect that the democrats will have at least as many who go to vote for who they really prefer to who would be worse for the GOP. This will in effect cancel out the mischief voters to leave the independents.</p>
<p>The independents made up 45% of the democratic primary and 37% of the republican primary in NH. The have no reason to vote in the democratic primary in MI (thanks to the DNC) so I suspect that they will vote in the republican primary (of those who would have voted anyway). If they are truly independent they will not be seeing who they can vote for to hurt the GOP, but rather who they think will be best for the country. In NH, according to the <a href="http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/index.html#NHREP" rel="nofollow">CNN exit poll</a> so grab your salt shaker, McCain got 40% of the independent vote, to 27% for Mitt, 13% for Paul, 9% for Huckabee, 6% for Rudy. I suspect we will see similar distribution for MI. McCain got 34% of republican party ID to Mitt's 35% so it was a wash there. </p>
<p>Certainly MI is different from NH, but I suspect that the independents are likely to be somewhat the same. Of course, this will all be known soon.</p>
<p>As to open vs closed primary, I can see both sides to this. So I would leave it up to the parties to decide which they prefer. The problem really only comes up when one party has a boring primary (usually the party in the White House) or the special case of this year the DNC making the MI contest meaningless. Now if you showed that the DNC made the MI contest meaningless in order to push democrats to vote in the republican primary for the "worst" republican candidate, then I would want to revisit the issue. But you would have to be the sort to assume Clinton stole the NH election through diebold to start believing that level of conspiracy theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264509</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264509</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don&#039;t follow, if you get no say in who becomes POTUS unless you register with one of the two parties, wouldn&#039;t that encourage continued party affiliation instead of discouraging it?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You are probably right.  I was assuming people who weren&#039;t in either party probably had a good reason, but in reflection a lot probably aren&#039;t because they just don&#039;t bother.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don't follow, if you get no say in who becomes POTUS unless you register with one of the two parties, wouldn't that encourage continued party affiliation instead of discouraging it?</p></blockquote>
<p>You are probably right.  I was assuming people who weren't in either party probably had a good reason, but in reflection a lot probably aren't because they just don't bother.</p>
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		<title>By: Appalachian Scribe &#187; Daily Kos Endorses Romney</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264496</link>
		<dc:creator>Appalachian Scribe &#187; Daily Kos Endorses Romney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264496</guid>
		<description>[...] Joyner has a roundup of blogger reaction.   Posted at 4:59 pm in Category: American Politics, &#039;08 Elections &#124; postCount(&#039;2674&#039;); &#124; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Joyner has a roundup of blogger reaction.   Posted at 4:59 pm in Category: American Politics, '08 Elections | postCount('2674'); | [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Flowerplough</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264494</link>
		<dc:creator>Flowerplough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264494</guid>
		<description>&quot;helping Jesse Jackson win the Democratic primary, helping rack up big margins for Jackson in Republican precincts. (Michigan Republicans can clearly be counted on to practice the worst of racial politics.)&quot;

Is Soros Kosolitos telling us that voting for Jesse Jackson in a primary election is &quot;the worst of racial politics&quot;? And does he then believe the Clinton fairy tale that &quot;Dr. King&#039;s dream (only) began to be realized when President Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"helping Jesse Jackson win the Democratic primary, helping rack up big margins for Jackson in Republican precincts. (Michigan Republicans can clearly be counted on to practice the worst of racial politics.)"</p>
<p>Is Soros Kosolitos telling us that voting for Jesse Jackson in a primary election is "the worst of racial politics"? And does he then believe the Clinton fairy tale that "Dr. King's dream (only) began to be realized when President Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act"?</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan Selvidge</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264485</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan Selvidge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264485</guid>
		<description>What is wrong with all of you? Voting for someone like Mitt when you are a democrat? This is a no brainer, if you care about ending the war and ending big brother spying on you then make your vote count and vote for Ron Paul. How could anyone go to the polls to vote for someone they purposely did not like. Ron Paul is the only candidate worth a damn. Get off your ass, go get your friends and vote for Ron Paul, End This War NOW!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is wrong with all of you? Voting for someone like Mitt when you are a democrat? This is a no brainer, if you care about ending the war and ending big brother spying on you then make your vote count and vote for Ron Paul. How could anyone go to the polls to vote for someone they purposely did not like. Ron Paul is the only candidate worth a damn. Get off your ass, go get your friends and vote for Ron Paul, End This War NOW!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264461</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264461</guid>
		<description>I can see how this idea would appeal to people who are indifferent to whether the country is better off or not as long as their side wins.

In my view everybody, regardless of party, should vote their hearts. I think strategic voting is self-deluding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see how this idea would appeal to people who are indifferent to whether the country is better off or not as long as their side wins.</p>
<p>In my view everybody, regardless of party, should vote their hearts. I think strategic voting is self-deluding.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/comment-page-1/#comment-264460</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/01/crossover_mischief_in_michigan/#comment-264460</guid>
		<description>I am not keen on the idea of voting in another party&#039;s primary for the sole purpose of creating mischief.

I would actually prefer that primaries be limited to those who are registered for the party, but if primaries are open, I like the way NH allows independants to participate-while independants can choose to vote in either primary, registered democrats can only vote in the democratic primary, and registered republicans in the GOP primary.  

I think those who would be most enamored of causing mischief more than likely are going to be affiliated with a party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not keen on the idea of voting in another party's primary for the sole purpose of creating mischief.</p>
<p>I would actually prefer that primaries be limited to those who are registered for the party, but if primaries are open, I like the way NH allows independants to participate-while independants can choose to vote in either primary, registered democrats can only vote in the democratic primary, and registered republicans in the GOP primary.  </p>
<p>I think those who would be most enamored of causing mischief more than likely are going to be affiliated with a party.</p>
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