Yesterday, as an example of the infringement on free speech, I briefly mentioned that homosexuality was considered a mental disorder by the psychologists until the homosexuals applied political pressure to change this definition without any scientific ...

I am learning that pretend scholarly is something Anderson is good at.

Strangely, no professional historian appears to have been persuaded by "Arthur R. Butz, Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science" at Northwestern U. I blame the Elders of Zion (who somehow failed to stop this guy from getting tenure ... you're slipping, Elders!).

More stats for the curious; the table is on the high end, 5.9 millions Jews murdered. As the source acknowledges, the Nuremburg tribunal came up with about 5.7 million.

Wikipedia is also worth consulting.

If you care, please go to the Arthur Butz site I link above.

Thank you for being civil - too many people are not when discussing contraversial issues.

You said:

(1) Just pointing out what “perversion” means. Reducing it to synonyms, as you did, fixes the implications of your original statement. A sin is not a mental disorder.

You are confounding what I originally stated. I never claimed a sin was a mental disorder. My original statement on homosexuality [again not my main point] was In much of Europe and Canada, you can be jailed for pointing out that homosexuality is a perversion according to most (all?) the major religions and that homosexuality was considered a mental disorder by the psychologists until the homosexuals applied political pressure to change this definition without any scientific rationale whatsoever.

I hate to go back to seventh grade English, but let's dissect the sentence. In part 1, of the sentence, I mention that the world's major religions consider homosexuality a perversion. In part 2, I mention that homosexuality was considered a mental disorder by psychologists. I never made the leap that sin (your word, I said perversion) was a mental disorder although that would be an interesting discussion. (And I took the time to look around your site – anyone with your obvious command of the English language surely understands how to dissect sentences, probably better than I. I suspect you simply misread my original post).

With that clarification, I do not think using the definition of the word perversion (not synonyms, but the definition) changes anything. However, if it makes you happy, let's look at the English translations. I went ahead and looked up a few references for you. The Jews called male homosexuality an "abomination" (for example, Leviticus 18:11) while the Christians called it "vile", "against nature", and the result of a "debased mind" (for example Romans 1:26-28). I'm not as familiar with the Koran, so I found a link with some cites.

Then you stated (first sentence was originally mine with you applying the bold):
(2) generally results in "significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability”
The bolded words refute your argument, I think. Though your references would be interesting.
Certainly, some gays (for ex.) engage in risky sexual practices. So do straights. But there is nothing about being gay, per se, that leads one to have anonymous unprotected encounters at highway rest stops, etc.

I disagree with your last statement. If it were true, there should be no difference is behavior between straight men and gay men other than the target of their amorous affection. In which case, I would agree with you. However, the facts do not lead to this conclusion. Here are a few quotes that support my case.

A 1997 article published in the International Journal of Epidemiology found that in one Canadian urban area, the expected life span for a homosexual man at age 20 was 8 to 20 years less than that for all men.

The Centers for Disease Control reported last year that new cases of HIV among homosexual men rose for the third straight year. Homosexual men accounted for 42 percent of new HIV cases in 2000 and 60 percent of all cases among all men -- despite the fact that homosexual men make up no more than 1 to 3 percent of the population. Among all new cases heterosexuals accounted for 33 percent, injection drug users 25 percent. In addition, homosexual men account for two-thirds of new syphilis cases, the CDC reported this year.

Again, the general case (homosexuality) leads to a significantly increased risk of death, pain, and/or disability (vastly increased chance of catching HIV, syphilis, and other STDs).

I think it very clear that this meets the APA definition – which is why homosexuality was originally classified as a mental disorder.

OK, I have spent some time looking up a few stats. If you still disagree, provide some legitimate reasons why homosexuality does not meet the APA definition of a mental disorder. Or even find some statistics showing that gay men have the same number of sexual partners as straight men. That would go a long way toward refuting my argument. However, if you discover that homosexuals have many more sexual partners than straight men, that would reinforce my case.

Now I'm going offline for a bit, but I will definitely check back when I have time. Again, a pleasure discuss this civilly with someone with a different point of view.

I won't argue with him (why bother), but lest the onlooker be misled, here's a page with some handy refutations on many Holocaust-denial subjects. The population issue is at 2.18, scroll down. The page cites the numbers from the Wannsee memorandum drawn up by Eichmann.

Here's a handy map. Note that the figures for Russia and Poland differ from those in the Wannsee memo b/c Russia and Germany divided up Poland in 1939, and the map shows prewar borders.

Finally, here's a great site that was created re: Irving's suit against a professor who called him a Holocaust denier. She proved her case handily. The section by Christopher Browning is especially pertinent.

RJN, I hear the skiing is wonderful at Innsbruck this time of year ....

This is the web site of Arthur Butz a prominent, and respected, revisionist. You can learn much from this guy.

http://pubweb.northwestern.edu/~abutz/

(2) generally results in “significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability”

The bolded words refute your argument, I think. Though your references would be interesting.

Certainly, some gays (for ex.) engage in risky sexual practices. So do straights. But there is nothing about being gay, per se, that leads one to have anonymous unprotected encounters at highway rest stops, etc.

However, two quick points:

1 - the dictionary definition of perversion is a sexual practice or act considered abnormal or deviant. Yes, all major religions considered homosexuality abnormal and deviant well before the word perversion was coined (or even before the English language was established if you want to take your nitpick to its logical extension). If you truly doubt this, I'll be glad to provide you with some references.

2 - In layman's terms, the APA generally defines a mental disorder as a behavior that generally results in "significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability" etc. If you want me to provide references to the average life expectancy of an American homosexual, I'll be glad to do so. I have gay friends who I do not expect to live to 40 - this is not a healthy lifestyle and most gays admit it. Whether or not they have a choice in the matter is a huge, long, complicated topic, but the question as to whether or not homosexuality meets the normal definition of a mental disorder (i.e., behavior that significantly increases risk of suffering death, pain, and/or disability) is an empirical question to which all evidence cries "YES"

RJN, you are a liar.

I hate Nazis.

The Holocaust, as we know it; six million Jews gassed and cremated is patent nonsense. There is no evidence for anything like these numbers. There never were that many Jews available to Hitler in the first place.

The Jews need for the six million figure may have an antecedent:

http://globalfire.tv/nj/04en/rel...on/ 6million.htm

....."This self-imposed prophesy – without fulfillment of this prophesy the return to the Promised Land would not be permitted – led to the 1919 "six-million-prophecy-crash". Based on the Balfour-Declaration of 1917 the state of Israel was guaranteed, and the Diaspora-Jews would return to the "Promised Land". The leading Jews at that time expected 1920 a migration of their brethren into "their Land". But, before the return could take place, "6 million" of them had to disappear, according to the wrongly interpreted prophecy.".....

Perhaps this is the reason for the strange insistence the Jews place on the six million dead, and cremated as in burnt offering.