It has been over three days since you refered to Plame's "press releases, press conferences, magazine interviews".

I asked you last week for some type of substantiation of your claims.

What is taking you so long?

Could it be you made it all up??

Can you IMAGINE what would have happened if a Democratic administration had allowed that to happen? The Republicans would have, APPROPRIATELY, asked for the Administration to step down and face treason. But no, nothing happened.

Reminder: these guys were elected because they were going to be "accountable". What a joke. What a treasonous, horrible joke.

So we shouldn't be blaming the victims for trying to get some justice. We should be trying to help them find out who actually committed the crime.

I can understand that, but if I were mad-as-hell and wanting to get even, I don’t think one of my first stops would be the pages of Vanity Fair. I can’t help but think they see a “golden opportunity” and are taking it. Maybe they are both mad-as-hell and attention seekers, but I still find that the latter undermines their claims of damage and being angry.

Generally, people who are mad-as-hell seek attention--they have a complaint, and they want it listened to.

Calling somebody an "attention seeker" as an excuse for dismissing what they have to say has always seemed particularly irrational to me. Clearly, anybody who has anything to say which they believe to be important is by definition seeking attention. They may be wrong or right in that belief, but it has nothing to do with the fact that they are seeking attention for their point of view.

Wilson and his wife clearly believe that individuals in our administration have not merely endangered them personally and injured them financially and professionally, but also endangered out country's critical intelligence-gathering apparatus in order to promote what turned out to be erroneous intelligence that led the US into a war that has cost thousands of American lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. If they are correct in this belief, it is very important that the public learn about it, and Wilson and Plame would be irresponsible if they were not "seeking attention."

General Hayden finally came out and said that Plame was covert and was classified. I think that should end all discussion, but obviously it won't. Hayden also had to approve whatever Plame spoke about under oath. You can hardly accuse Hayden of being a partisan liberal, a Democrat, an Al Gore supporter, or whatever else people want to attack the Wilson's for.

He said that he was told by the CIA that his trip was motivated by Cheney's inquiries regarding the supposed Niger deal. This has been confirmed to be true. There is no meaningful dispute.

He went to Niger, and came back and reported the TRUTH--that there was no evidence of any deal for Saddam to get uranium, and it would be very difficult to make such a deal work if it did exist. Again, there is no serious dispute.

In his newspaper article, he stated that the Niger claim was bogus (it was), that the CIA knew that it was bogus (they did), and that they had presumably conveyed this information to the White House (they had). The White House has admitted that there was no justification for the inclusion of the claim in the President's speech

He said that he was not sent by his wife. This is obviously true, since his wife had no authority to make such a decision. At most, she could recommend him as qualified--and it seems that he was, in that he reached the correct conclusion, that the supposed deal was bogus.

He and his wife stated that his wife was a covert CIA operative. This has been confirmed by the CIA, by Fitzgerald, and recently stated under oath by Plame in her testimony to Congress.

Plame undertook potentially dangerous covert missions for her country. Wilson, a man with a long history of courageous service who has risked his life in service to his country, left his wife and babies to carry out a fact-finding mission for his country. They deserve to be celebrated for their service and courage. But for the neocons, truth is lies, lies are the truth, and patriots are enemies of the state.

You're the first to raise this issue in point-blank simplicity. A covert agent working EXACTLY in the area of greatest concern to this country has her cover blown. Her operation, the company she works for has its cover blown, and everyone she ever worked with has their cover blown, and anyone who ever met them is now a suspect in the target countries. Jesus! That's the highest of treason.

The President holds NO ONE accountable. Not a single soul. Though half his White House was blabbing her name all over the street, not a SINGLE person is held to account.

Can you imagine the hypocrisy, all this is the name of what? The treason?

That's what happened happened. There's no putting lipstick on this pig or diverting attention. Four years have gone by AND NOTHING, no one accoutable.

It's beyond disgusting, un-American, treasonous. And people defend this Administration over a naked act of treason.

Honestly. It isn't any more difficult to understand. I can't believe people obfuscate the simple truth here.

Don't you think that the act of outing her and endangering other operatives, not to mention hindering their mission of WMD counter-proliferation, is a high crime regardless of how she or her husband handled it? That issue seems to me to be about #1000 on my list of importance of this story. Are you saying that it is much higher? If so, why?

The Democrats are pulling another political grandstanding stunt. Will the lead actress have her lines down? (from the Washington Post, page A1)
She has been silent nearly four years. Today, the CIA officer whose unmasking fueled a political uproar and ...

Well I try to avoid calling people’s patriotism into question as a general rule.

Yet you challenge the motives of a distinguished public servant and his CIA employed spouse of blown cover? Interesting distinction.... Now that you know Plame had NOTHING to do with Wilson being sent to Niger, do you feel duped?

I think you answer your own question here. If her safety and the safety of others is put into question then capitalizing on that strikes me as rather…well questionable is about the most polite I can come up with.

Have you ever participated in the setup or execution of a covert op? Do you have any personal experience in espionage? Reading Tom Clancy or Ludlum doesn't count, by the way. If not, what then do you draw upon to support your skepticism with Jaw's position?

In my opinion, Joe Wilson is more of a patriot than Cheney, Bush, Rove, Libby and Gonzales all put together. I’m sure you disagree, however.

Well I try to avoid calling people's patriotism into question as a general rule. I don't doubt that Bush et. al. are quite willing to play hard ball, but it seems that the Wilson's are too. But going from there to being unpatriotic or even anti-American strikes me as jingoistic rhetoric.

But is it really that hard to imagine that, rather than wishing to “capitalize” on their fame, they’re just plain old mad as hell and wanting to get even?

I can understand that, but if I were mad-as-hell and wanting to get even, I don't think one of my first stops would be the pages of Vanity Fair. I can't help but think they see a "golden opportunity" and are taking it. Maybe they are both mad-as-hell and attention seekers, but I still find that the latter undermines their claims of damage and being angry.

But who knows maybe what really has Mrs. Wilson really steamed is the book deal falling through.

I mean, seriously: imagine yourself in Plame’s shoes, when the Novak article comes out. How would *you* feel?

Pretty peeved, but again I don't think I'd be doing photo shoots with a major magazine, shopping a bood deal, and so forth. Heck, I've even seen talk of a (television?) movie deal, although I don't know if Plame would benefit from that. The lawsuit is pretty much what I'd see as the first step.

And also, what would it matter if she was? Her whole career, along with the safety of other CIA agents, was destroyed by that point.

I think you answer your own question here. If her safety and the safety of others is put into question then capitalizing on that strikes me as rather...well questionable is about the most polite I can come up with.

But it must be said, that's a pretty low standard for Wilson to have to meet. He could be selling our nuclear secrets to Tehran and still measure up to that.

Thanks for the concession, I appreciate it. You've distinquished yourself from the many who seem fine forwarding lies with impunity.

As for your argument that Plame and Wilson are "attention seekers"- well, I'll be happy to look at your evidence. Plame's mouth has been pretty much shut up to this point (as it should be, because there isn't a hell of a lot of background she can provide without leaking national secrets anyway). Joe has responded in the way a career foreign service employee who worked for years for presidents from both parties may be expected to when his wife's career has been trashed without remorse. He has always been a "fighter" and you can read stories about his behavior in Baghdad during Bush I's presidency evidencing just that.

I know they've negotiated a book deal and probably movie/TV rights as well on their story. More power to them- it clearly appears to me that Cheney/Rove and company messed with the wrong folks this time and I certainly don't think they've done anything to date that is irresponsible in contesting the administration's slander. If you don't have empathy for them, I suppose that is your prerogative, but to me it represents a partisan position rather than one based on weighing the facts.

In my opinion, Joe Wilson is more of a patriot than Cheney, Bush, Rove, Libby and Gonzales all put together. I'm sure you disagree, however.