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	<title>Comments on: Diversity Breeds Contempt</title>
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		<title>By: BlogRunner: Bad news on the diversity front</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-136256</link>
		<dc:creator>BlogRunner: Bad news on the diversity front</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-136256</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] and now comes news (via Rod) that John Leo has written about Putnam&#039;s research for City Journal. Diversity Breeds Contempt James&#160;Joyner Outside&#160;the&#160;Beltway  elap(&#039;1182943313&#039;);Harvard political scientist [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] and now comes news (via Rod) that John Leo has written about Putnam's research for City Journal. Diversity Breeds Contempt James Joyner Outside the Beltway  elap('1182943313');Harvard political scientist [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Electric Venom &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Nine Nibbles</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135631</link>
		<dc:creator>Electric Venom &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Nine Nibbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135631</guid>
		<description>[...] Newsflash: people like to be near people like themselves. Oh, wait. That&#8217;s not [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Newsflash: people like to be near people like themselves. Oh, wait. That&#8217;s not [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tano</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135589</link>
		<dc:creator>Tano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135589</guid>
		<description>Well Dave, its true that I got the presents, not the kids in the Chinese restaurant.

But nonetheless, I did grow up in an environment where it was just taken as a given that when we pay for education of the children, it means all children, even &quot;them&quot;.

Gee, I hope I am not slipping into some big-city elitist attitude by claiming that we were smart enough to understand that the Chinese kid was going to grow up someday and be a part of our society, so we had an interest in seeing them educated even if they were &quot;strange&quot;. While seemingly, folks from other parts of the country cant quite seem to make this calculation. 

I guess it is a question of how you define &quot;us&quot;. Living in the most diverse place on earth, it is a bit hard to define &quot;us&quot; in a narrow manner. We may start out that way in the neighborhood, but you only have to walk a few blocks and meet the rest of the world. Seems inevitable that eventually you realize that &quot;us&quot; means &quot;all of us&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Dave, its true that I got the presents, not the kids in the Chinese restaurant.</p>
<p>But nonetheless, I did grow up in an environment where it was just taken as a given that when we pay for education of the children, it means all children, even "them".</p>
<p>Gee, I hope I am not slipping into some big-city elitist attitude by claiming that we were smart enough to understand that the Chinese kid was going to grow up someday and be a part of our society, so we had an interest in seeing them educated even if they were "strange". While seemingly, folks from other parts of the country cant quite seem to make this calculation. </p>
<p>I guess it is a question of how you define "us". Living in the most diverse place on earth, it is a bit hard to define "us" in a narrow manner. We may start out that way in the neighborhood, but you only have to walk a few blocks and meet the rest of the world. Seems inevitable that eventually you realize that "us" means "all of us".</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135586</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135586</guid>
		<description>The fact that we are more comfortable with &quot;our own&quot; really isn&#039;t all that shocking a finding--especially when it comes to things like language and culture.

But, the bottom line is that this is part of any migration of human beings.  Despite the fact that I am a white male of protestant derivation who was born in, and lived the bulk of my life in, a former Confederate state, I had an extremely difficult time fitting into to life in a small, Alabama town.  Indeed, so much so that my family and I moved to a larger city nearby after several years of trying to integrate.

And, of course, the definition of one&#039;s &quot;own&quot; changes over time.  There are lot of people I would prefer to hang out with/live with than some of my blood relatives.  Heck, I have family in the central part of the state in which I now live with whom I have very, very little in common, despite the fact that my Mother spent much of her childhood among them.

Some places are more used to new comers than are others.  I would argue that, in general, California, DC, Austin, NYC, Chicago, etc. are easier to assimilate into because the cultures are used to newcomers and are not based on the roots of their citizens and the long-term relationships between residents and their families.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that we are more comfortable with "our own" really isn't all that shocking a finding--especially when it comes to things like language and culture.</p>
<p>But, the bottom line is that this is part of any migration of human beings.  Despite the fact that I am a white male of protestant derivation who was born in, and lived the bulk of my life in, a former Confederate state, I had an extremely difficult time fitting into to life in a small, Alabama town.  Indeed, so much so that my family and I moved to a larger city nearby after several years of trying to integrate.</p>
<p>And, of course, the definition of one's "own" changes over time.  There are lot of people I would prefer to hang out with/live with than some of my blood relatives.  Heck, I have family in the central part of the state in which I now live with whom I have very, very little in common, despite the fact that my Mother spent much of her childhood among them.</p>
<p>Some places are more used to new comers than are others.  I would argue that, in general, California, DC, Austin, NYC, Chicago, etc. are easier to assimilate into because the cultures are used to newcomers and are not based on the roots of their citizens and the long-term relationships between residents and their families.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135583</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135583</guid>
		<description>Tano, to whom did your granny give birthday presents:  her grandchildren or the folks who ran the Chinese restaurant she got takeout from?

It&#039;s not an irrelevant or facetious question.  Experience suggests that it&#039;s hard to maintain taxpayers&#039; interest in paying for the education of &#147;their&#148; children or paying for &#147;their&#148; healthcare.  And it&#039;s for exactly the same reason as (I suspect) that your granny gave her grandchildren presents on their birthdays rather than the folks at the Chinese takeaway.

I&#039;m not saying we shouldn&#039;t do these things.  All I&#039;m saying is that it&#039;s easier to justify when they are us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tano, to whom did your granny give birthday presents:  her grandchildren or the folks who ran the Chinese restaurant she got takeout from?</p>
<p>It's not an irrelevant or facetious question.  Experience suggests that it's hard to maintain taxpayers' interest in paying for the education of &#8220;their&#8221; children or paying for &#8220;their&#8221; healthcare.  And it's for exactly the same reason as (I suspect) that your granny gave her grandchildren presents on their birthdays rather than the folks at the Chinese takeaway.</p>
<p>I'm not saying we shouldn't do these things.  All I'm saying is that it's easier to justify when they are us.</p>
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		<title>By: Tano</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135573</link>
		<dc:creator>Tano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135573</guid>
		<description>I guess that, as a native New Yorker, my response to all this is &quot;...whatever&quot;.

Yeah. Negotiating diverse landscapes can be a challange. Problematical, perhaps. Also enriching. And far more interesting than living in a safe, boring monochrome.

Excuse the triteness, but as my granny used to say &quot;diversity is the spice of life&quot;. 
OK, she actually said &quot;variety is...&quot;, but you get the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess that, as a native New Yorker, my response to all this is "...whatever".</p>
<p>Yeah. Negotiating diverse landscapes can be a challange. Problematical, perhaps. Also enriching. And far more interesting than living in a safe, boring monochrome.</p>
<p>Excuse the triteness, but as my granny used to say "diversity is the spice of life".<br />
OK, she actually said "variety is...", but you get the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135555</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135555</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But that&#039;s precisely because there&#039;s a large cohort of unassimilated Mexicans in those places! &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Clearly partially true.  But I would argue that a far more significant factor is the much larger cohort of &lt;em&gt;assimilated&lt;/em&gt; Hispanics in those places.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But that's precisely because there's a large cohort of unassimilated Mexicans in those places! </p></blockquote>
<p>Clearly partially true.  But I would argue that a far more significant factor is the much larger cohort of <em>assimilated</em> Hispanics in those places.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135542</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135542</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I can&#039;t see Mexicans having a harder time of assimilation in California or Texas than, say, an Englishman who moves to rural Arkansas or South Florida.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sure. But that&#039;s precisely because there&#039;s a large cohort of unassimilated Mexicans in those places!  And I&#039;d think a rural Englishman would be fine moving to the rural South; a Londoner, not so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I can't see Mexicans having a harder time of assimilation in California or Texas than, say, an Englishman who moves to rural Arkansas or South Florida.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sure. But that's precisely because there's a large cohort of unassimilated Mexicans in those places!  And I'd think a rural Englishman would be fine moving to the rural South; a Londoner, not so much.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135531</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135531</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Is it your contention that English speaking immigrants are having more difficulty assimilating in California than their African and Mexican counterparts?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well, not the Africans so much, but in general I can&#039;t see Mexicans having a harder time of assimilation in California or Texas than, say, an Englishman who moves to rural Arkansas or South Florida.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Is it your contention that English speaking immigrants are having more difficulty assimilating in California than their African and Mexican counterparts?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, not the Africans so much, but in general I can't see Mexicans having a harder time of assimilation in California or Texas than, say, an Englishman who moves to rural Arkansas or South Florida.</p>
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		<title>By: spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135526</link>
		<dc:creator>spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135526</guid>
		<description>I have to ask a fundamental question about this research. He is looking at neighborhoods that have already changed and contain many immigrants. So who is he sampling?  One, the immigrants. Two, those who did not move out. I suspect the bulk of those that did not leave are the elderly and in particular the poor elderly. Frequently these will be those who are locked in because they own a home that has fallen in value so they can not sell it and buy a comparable home in a different community.

If my speculations are correct he is drawing very widespread conclusion from what appears to be a very biased sample.  Now I have not read his research. So can anyone confirm or disprove my suspicions that he is sampling a very bias sample.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to ask a fundamental question about this research. He is looking at neighborhoods that have already changed and contain many immigrants. So who is he sampling?  One, the immigrants. Two, those who did not move out. I suspect the bulk of those that did not leave are the elderly and in particular the poor elderly. Frequently these will be those who are locked in because they own a home that has fallen in value so they can not sell it and buy a comparable home in a different community.</p>
<p>If my speculations are correct he is drawing very widespread conclusion from what appears to be a very biased sample.  Now I have not read his research. So can anyone confirm or disprove my suspicions that he is sampling a very bias sample.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135522</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135522</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Have you ever, ever been to California?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A few times.  Is it your contention that English speaking immigrants are having more difficulty assimilating in California than their African and Mexican counterparts?  Or merely that, given a huge non-assimilated Mexican population, new Mexican immigrants can blend in nicely?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Have you ever, ever been to California?</p></blockquote>
<p>A few times.  Is it your contention that English speaking immigrants are having more difficulty assimilating in California than their African and Mexican counterparts?  Or merely that, given a huge non-assimilated Mexican population, new Mexican immigrants can blend in nicely?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135517</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135517</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Presumably, British and Canadian immigrants to the United States have an easier time assimilating than those from Mexico, let alone Ethiopia. Shared language and cultural norms make trust and social interaction easier.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Have you ever, ever been to California?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Presumably, British and Canadian immigrants to the United States have an easier time assimilating than those from Mexico, let alone Ethiopia. Shared language and cultural norms make trust and social interaction easier.</p></blockquote>
<p>Have you ever, ever been to California?</p>
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		<title>By: Right Wing Nut House &#187; CAGE MATCH: ASSIMILATION VS. MULTICULTURALISM</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135505</link>
		<dc:creator>Right Wing Nut House &#187; CAGE MATCH: ASSIMILATION VS. MULTICULTURALISM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135505</guid>
		<description>[...] James Joyner and I are on pretty much the same wavelength. He also rounds up some other reaction, including this from Rod Dreher: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] James Joyner and I are on pretty much the same wavelength. He also rounds up some other reaction, including this from Rod Dreher: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jpe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135502</link>
		<dc:creator>jpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135502</guid>
		<description>The study certainly tracks my experience.  Dave&#039;s comment was very smart, as well, and is a strong counter.  The only thing I&#039;d add is that assimilation into whiteness usually happens on the back of another, newer group.  Hence the Jewish assimilation project excluding blacks, or Italians excluding Poles, etc. (there&#039;s a lot of academic stuff on this topic, and it&#039;s entirely possible I&#039;m misrepresenting the argument or missing some subtleties)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The study certainly tracks my experience.  Dave's comment was very smart, as well, and is a strong counter.  The only thing I'd add is that assimilation into whiteness usually happens on the back of another, newer group.  Hence the Jewish assimilation project excluding blacks, or Italians excluding Poles, etc. (there's a lot of academic stuff on this topic, and it's entirely possible I'm misrepresenting the argument or missing some subtleties)</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/diversity_breeds_contempt/comment-page-1/#comment-135501</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/06/diversity_breeds_contempt/#comment-135501</guid>
		<description>I find this something of a headscratcher, James.  On the one hand, there&#039;s research that validates what most people think:  we feel a greater sense of identify and affiliation (check the Latin roots of that word) with people to whom we have a genetic relationship e.g. our parents, our siblings, our cousins, our ethnic group.  That&#039;s a cross-cultural trait&#8212;it&#039;s not unique to U. S. society.

But on the other hand the idea of affiliation to groups with whom we have little significantly less genetic relationship has changed significantly over time, at least it&#039;s changed here in the United States.  There was a time (and, in places, that time is within living memory) where white Anglo-Saxon Protestants (people of English, Dutch, Scandinavian descent and also some Germans) distinguished between themselves and, well, everybody else.  They were &#147;white&#148;; nobody else was.

Slowly others have been allowed into the club:  Scots, Irish, and, later, southern and eastern Europeans.  Later yet Asians, and so on.

Is there a limit to diversity?  I have no idea.  I do agree that we&#039;re more likely to be willing to offer a helping hand to &#147;our own&#148; than it is to a stranger.  Who is our neighbor?

Not all of the change has been in a positive direction.  120 years ago the divide between rich and poor wasn&#039;t nearly so high.  In most cities rich and poor lived next door to each other or within blocks of each other.  Now the distances between where the well-to-do live and everybody else lives can be quite great and I&#039;ve seen at first hand people making distinctions based on presumed income (even when the ethnic group was their own) that I suspect might not have been made a century ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this something of a headscratcher, James.  On the one hand, there's research that validates what most people think:  we feel a greater sense of identify and affiliation (check the Latin roots of that word) with people to whom we have a genetic relationship e.g. our parents, our siblings, our cousins, our ethnic group.  That's a cross-cultural trait&mdash;it's not unique to U. S. society.</p>
<p>But on the other hand the idea of affiliation to groups with whom we have little significantly less genetic relationship has changed significantly over time, at least it's changed here in the United States.  There was a time (and, in places, that time is within living memory) where white Anglo-Saxon Protestants (people of English, Dutch, Scandinavian descent and also some Germans) distinguished between themselves and, well, everybody else.  They were &#8220;white&#8221;; nobody else was.</p>
<p>Slowly others have been allowed into the club:  Scots, Irish, and, later, southern and eastern Europeans.  Later yet Asians, and so on.</p>
<p>Is there a limit to diversity?  I have no idea.  I do agree that we're more likely to be willing to offer a helping hand to &#8220;our own&#8221; than it is to a stranger.  Who is our neighbor?</p>
<p>Not all of the change has been in a positive direction.  120 years ago the divide between rich and poor wasn't nearly so high.  In most cities rich and poor lived next door to each other or within blocks of each other.  Now the distances between where the well-to-do live and everybody else lives can be quite great and I've seen at first hand people making distinctions based on presumed income (even when the ethnic group was their own) that I suspect might not have been made a century ago.</p>
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