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	<title>Comments on: Do Liberal Professors Indoctrinate Students?</title>
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		<title>By: Colatina</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-314550</link>
		<dc:creator>Colatina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I would probably be more disturbed to see no change at all in political views as students go through college.  I don&#039;t know if it should be toward the left or the right, but the kind of knowledge that should be the focus of a liberal arts education should cause some kind of change in the political views of young people, which would proabably register on ideology research.  Some of the conservative criticism of higher education amounts to a demand that college be strictly vocational, and that it leave political socialization and the formation of political values up to the family, church, and workplace (which as we all know, are completely evenhanded and open-minded when it comes to politics!).  When any change at all in political views is seen as a horrifying finding about higher education, we&#039;ve got a problem with the way we see education.  Can anyone imagine being horrified to discover that the political views of the Founders were formed by their educational experience (many of them explicitly argued that education must do this)?  Perhaps the conservative complaint about academia is really about left-wing ideas themselves, not about diversity or balance at all.  That argument would be a lot more interesting, and a lot more consistent with conservatism.  But many conservatives can&#039;t pull that off, and so they prefer to argue that their ideas are embattled rather than arguing that they&#039;re better.  

I went to a very conservative liberal arts college (which I still love dearly).  My experience there was contrary to the claims of conservative critics of academia.  #1: the fact that these conservatives supposedly had leftism crammed down their throats all through school didn&#039;t make them more open to new ideas (speaking of many of them, not all).  They caricatured and ridiculed left ideas in class just as badly as left-wing profs are claimed to do.  Foucault was dumb and hey did you know that he was really really gay?; Rawls was kind of important, but not as important as Allan Bloom.  #2: Most (but not all) of the conservatives profs I&#039;ve had have liked being in conservative departments.  They didn&#039;t crave differences of opinion and a diversity of views any more than left-wing people do.  Being in the minority doesn&#039;t make you virtuous.  Some conservatives understand this point in every other case of a minority except their own.  By definition because I&#039;m a prof that has tended to vote Democratic (even though most of my students can&#039;t guess this and I&#039;m probably in the center or on the right of the academy), I&#039;m part of the unthinking, PC group-think of academia, but also by definition, Bush supporters are supporters of diversity of opinion and open-mindedness.  That&#039;s the assumption behind the claim that changes in ideology and voting patterns of profs amount to a &quot;criticism&quot; of academia.

There was an AEI paper that recently studied the effect of the left-leaning professoriate on students going to grad school.  They found that lower grad school attendance among conservatives was not due to intimidation by left profs or conservatives feeling unwelcome in the academy (conservative students, unlike many conservative critics of academia, actually report a high level of satisfaction with college), but lifestyle choices (having a family), and differences in values (making money over freedom and spontaneity).  So conservatives are, in general, challenged by alternative views but not intimidated to the point that they&#039;re driven away from higher education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would probably be more disturbed to see no change at all in political views as students go through college.  I don't know if it should be toward the left or the right, but the kind of knowledge that should be the focus of a liberal arts education should cause some kind of change in the political views of young people, which would proabably register on ideology research.  Some of the conservative criticism of higher education amounts to a demand that college be strictly vocational, and that it leave political socialization and the formation of political values up to the family, church, and workplace (which as we all know, are completely evenhanded and open-minded when it comes to politics!).  When any change at all in political views is seen as a horrifying finding about higher education, we've got a problem with the way we see education.  Can anyone imagine being horrified to discover that the political views of the Founders were formed by their educational experience (many of them explicitly argued that education must do this)?  Perhaps the conservative complaint about academia is really about left-wing ideas themselves, not about diversity or balance at all.  That argument would be a lot more interesting, and a lot more consistent with conservatism.  But many conservatives can't pull that off, and so they prefer to argue that their ideas are embattled rather than arguing that they're better.  </p>
<p>I went to a very conservative liberal arts college (which I still love dearly).  My experience there was contrary to the claims of conservative critics of academia.  #1: the fact that these conservatives supposedly had leftism crammed down their throats all through school didn't make them more open to new ideas (speaking of many of them, not all).  They caricatured and ridiculed left ideas in class just as badly as left-wing profs are claimed to do.  Foucault was dumb and hey did you know that he was really really gay?; Rawls was kind of important, but not as important as Allan Bloom.  #2: Most (but not all) of the conservatives profs I've had have liked being in conservative departments.  They didn't crave differences of opinion and a diversity of views any more than left-wing people do.  Being in the minority doesn't make you virtuous.  Some conservatives understand this point in every other case of a minority except their own.  By definition because I'm a prof that has tended to vote Democratic (even though most of my students can't guess this and I'm probably in the center or on the right of the academy), I'm part of the unthinking, PC group-think of academia, but also by definition, Bush supporters are supporters of diversity of opinion and open-mindedness.  That's the assumption behind the claim that changes in ideology and voting patterns of profs amount to a "criticism" of academia.</p>
<p>There was an AEI paper that recently studied the effect of the left-leaning professoriate on students going to grad school.  They found that lower grad school attendance among conservatives was not due to intimidation by left profs or conservatives feeling unwelcome in the academy (conservative students, unlike many conservative critics of academia, actually report a high level of satisfaction with college), but lifestyle choices (having a family), and differences in values (making money over freedom and spontaneity).  So conservatives are, in general, challenged by alternative views but not intimidated to the point that they're driven away from higher education.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313646</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/#comment-313646</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How little respect one must have for the American people to assume that simply listening to a differing viewpoint will change their beliefs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That Democrats have dominated the Congress for the last 70 years would seem a confirmation of the reasons behind this contempt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How little respect one must have for the American people to assume that simply listening to a differing viewpoint will change their beliefs.</p></blockquote>
<p>That Democrats have dominated the Congress for the last 70 years would seem a confirmation of the reasons behind this contempt.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313645</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/#comment-313645</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Most parent can’t get their teenagers to listen to them, what makes people think professors can?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Because when offered against the real world, big government liberalism is a far easier sell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Most parent can&rsquo;t get their teenagers to listen to them, what makes people think professors can?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because when offered against the real world, big government liberalism is a far easier sell.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Ringo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313581</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Ringo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>One methodological quibble.  Is there any reason to believe that all ideological shift caused by the liberal instruction would all occur in the time measured?

Surely, many people could shift ideologically in punctate ways, admitting in interview (or to themselves) a shift well after they have actually made it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One methodological quibble.  Is there any reason to believe that all ideological shift caused by the liberal instruction would all occur in the time measured?</p>
<p>Surely, many people could shift ideologically in punctate ways, admitting in interview (or to themselves) a shift well after they have actually made it.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313553</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And since I haven&#039;t read the study, these differences are meaningless unless this is a longitudinal study.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Given the setup and reporting, I presumed it was in fact longitudinal. Otherwise, not much point in comparing 1999 to 2003, we could simply compare 2003 entering frosh and 2003 seniors.  Indeed, if it&#039;s not a longitudinal study, using separate years would seem to make the study worse, since the external political climate would influence the results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And since I haven't read the study, these differences are meaningless unless this is a longitudinal study.</p></blockquote>
<p>Given the setup and reporting, I presumed it was in fact longitudinal. Otherwise, not much point in comparing 1999 to 2003, we could simply compare 2003 entering frosh and 2003 seniors.  Indeed, if it's not a longitudinal study, using separate years would seem to make the study worse, since the external political climate would influence the results.</p>
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		<title>By: rightwingprof</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313536</link>
		<dc:creator>rightwingprof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To say that a cohort drops by nearly a third when that cohort is nearly insignificant in the first place (1.3%) is misleading. A difference of 0.4% is very little difference. And since I haven&#039;t read the study, these differences are meaningless unless this is a longitudinal study.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To say that a cohort drops by nearly a third when that cohort is nearly insignificant in the first place (1.3%) is misleading. A difference of 0.4% is very little difference. And since I haven't read the study, these differences are meaningless unless this is a longitudinal study.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313530</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/#comment-313530</guid>
		<description>Hey, let&#039;s all just forget about the prior 13 years of exposure to NEA members.[lol]
 &quot;Kodachrome&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, let's all just forget about the prior 13 years of exposure to NEA members.[lol]<br />
 "Kodachrome"</p>
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		<title>By: mars</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313507</link>
		<dc:creator>mars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Honestly, what&#039;s the big surprise?  Self-identified conservative &amp; far-rights decrease during college, because college is doing its job: teaching these kids to think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, what's the big surprise?  Self-identified conservative &amp; far-rights decrease during college, because college is doing its job: teaching these kids to think.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313504</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Honestly, I attended college and grad school in the south, and in general my degree program had a variety of veiwpoints among the professors.

I saw more of a liberal/conservative shift in other classes (social work was probably the worst) what I found for myself is that it wasn&#039;t all that indoctrinating, but at times it was frustrating at times, if I felt the professor was trying to indoctrinate or push a certain viewpoint. I was less conservative then than I am now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, I attended college and grad school in the south, and in general my degree program had a variety of veiwpoints among the professors.</p>
<p>I saw more of a liberal/conservative shift in other classes (social work was probably the worst) what I found for myself is that it wasn't all that indoctrinating, but at times it was frustrating at times, if I felt the professor was trying to indoctrinate or push a certain viewpoint. I was less conservative then than I am now.</p>
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		<title>By: WR</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313478</link>
		<dc:creator>WR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m always fascinated by the rightwing terror that any American who is exposed to &quot;bad&quot; thinking -- whether it be liberal philosophy or unfair criticism of our country by African-American pastors -- must be irredeemably polluted and brainwashed. How little respect one must have for the American people to assume that simply listening to a differing viewpoint will change their beliefs. And how little faith they must have in their own philosophy to assume that anyone who hears something different will abandon it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm always fascinated by the rightwing terror that any American who is exposed to "bad" thinking -- whether it be liberal philosophy or unfair criticism of our country by African-American pastors -- must be irredeemably polluted and brainwashed. How little respect one must have for the American people to assume that simply listening to a differing viewpoint will change their beliefs. And how little faith they must have in their own philosophy to assume that anyone who hears something different will abandon it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey W. Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313470</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey W. Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Although I studied mechanical engineering, which is entirely apolitical, I did feel that my professors outside my major tried to push their personal ideology on students.  For example, in the economics department which was formerly influenced by Phil Gramm, the professors were notorious for overtly pushing supply side theories.  So, at least in my experience, it was the right wing of the faculty who were guilty of trying to shape the students politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I studied mechanical engineering, which is entirely apolitical, I did feel that my professors outside my major tried to push their personal ideology on students.  For example, in the economics department which was formerly influenced by Phil Gramm, the professors were notorious for overtly pushing supply side theories.  So, at least in my experience, it was the right wing of the faculty who were guilty of trying to shape the students politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313453</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps they found that the left-leaning subdemographics were simply more likely to still be around for a fourth year, hence the gender and wealth explanations.  Are women more likely to graduate than men?  I&#039;d guess yes, by a small amount.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps they found that the left-leaning subdemographics were simply more likely to still be around for a fourth year, hence the gender and wealth explanations.  Are women more likely to graduate than men?  I'd guess yes, by a small amount.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313359</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;Yeah, politics doesn’t come up often in the computer science department where I teach.
&lt;/em&gt;
You mean you don’t have grand VI vs. Emacs debates? What kind of second-rate CS program are you running there?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s religion not politics.  Emacs is for wussies who can&#039;t handle modes.

Garbage collection is also for wussies. So I guess I do indoctrinate my students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><em>Yeah, politics doesn&rsquo;t come up often in the computer science department where I teach.<br />
</em><br />
You mean you don&rsquo;t have grand VI vs. Emacs debates? What kind of second-rate CS program are you running there?
</p></blockquote>
<p>That's religion not politics.  Emacs is for wussies who can't handle modes.</p>
<p>Garbage collection is also for wussies. So I guess I do indoctrinate my students.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Stinson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313341</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Stinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/#comment-313341</guid>
		<description>From my experience at another southern state school, liberal professors had very little impact on the liberalism or conservatism of their students.  We did have one liberal professor in the faculty who refused to write letters of recommendation for any student she deemed unacceptably right-wing -- and she proudly publicized this policy in the department -- but other than this there was no noticeable ideological pressure from faculty.

Assuming that private universities have a similar faculty make-up, could an elitism factor, rather than faculty influence, be driving the leftward shift at the private schools as shown in the table?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my experience at another southern state school, liberal professors had very little impact on the liberalism or conservatism of their students.  We did have one liberal professor in the faculty who refused to write letters of recommendation for any student she deemed unacceptably right-wing -- and she proudly publicized this policy in the department -- but other than this there was no noticeable ideological pressure from faculty.</p>
<p>Assuming that private universities have a similar faculty make-up, could an elitism factor, rather than faculty influence, be driving the leftward shift at the private schools as shown in the table?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/do_liberal_professors_indoctrinate_students/comment-page-1/#comment-313318</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Yeah, politics doesn’t come up often in the computer science department where I teach.&lt;/blockquote&gt;You mean you don&#039;t have grand VI vs. Emacs debates?  What kind of second-rate CS program are you running there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Yeah, politics doesn&rsquo;t come up often in the computer science department where I teach.</p></blockquote>
<p>You mean you don't have grand VI vs. Emacs debates?  What kind of second-rate CS program are you running there?</p>
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