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	<title>Comments on: Does Romney&#8217;s America Include Non-Believers?</title>
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		<title>By: Everyday Citizen</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-251150</link>
		<dc:creator>Everyday Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;What We Need...&lt;/strong&gt;

Well I hear someone&#039;s had an extra marital affair. I know it wasn&#039;t me. It wasn&#039;t my wife, was it? Oh thank god! That&#039;s such a relief because for a second there I thought that it may have something to do with me or my family or perhaps that it migh...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>What We Need...</strong></p>
<p>Well I hear someone's had an extra marital affair. I know it wasn't me. It wasn't my wife, was it? Oh thank god! That's such a relief because for a second there I thought that it may have something to do with me or my family or perhaps that it migh...</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-249426</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-249426</guid>
		<description>Ummm guys?

Before you go after Romney, consider targeting first John Adams....

&lt;blockquote&gt;Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm guys?</p>
<p>Before you go after Romney, consider targeting first John Adams....</p>
<blockquote><p>Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Grewgills</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248518</link>
		<dc:creator>Grewgills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248518</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...You are either with Him or against him...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
When you see the very act of not believing in your God as aggression against your God and by extension you.  You define the atheist as an aggressor and then use this aggression as excuse for your &#039;counter&#039; aggression.  That&#039;s quite a nice little cocoon of circular logic you have built for yourself.
Just curious.
Does &quot;with Him or against Him&quot; leave the Hindus and animists in or out?  Are you with them or against them?
Is it OK to be for Her or It?
What about the satanists and wiccans?  Does it have to be the right Him/Them or will any Him/Them do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>...You are either with Him or against him...</p></blockquote>
<p>When you see the very act of not believing in your God as aggression against your God and by extension you.  You define the atheist as an aggressor and then use this aggression as excuse for your 'counter' aggression.  That's quite a nice little cocoon of circular logic you have built for yourself.<br />
Just curious.<br />
Does "with Him or against Him" leave the Hindus and animists in or out?  Are you with them or against them?<br />
Is it OK to be for Her or It?<br />
What about the satanists and wiccans?  Does it have to be the right Him/Them or will any Him/Them do?</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248403</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248403</guid>
		<description>There is plenty of proof here that religious bigotry is not confined to the &quot;religious&quot;, but thrives among those who claim to be &quot;non-religious&quot;, who are not so much uninformed as misinformed by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is plenty of proof here that religious bigotry is not confined to the "religious", but thrives among those who claim to be "non-religious", who are not so much uninformed as misinformed by it.</p>
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		<title>By: bains</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248270</link>
		<dc:creator>bains</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 06:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248270</guid>
		<description>Well, as an agnostic, I have no problems with Ronmey - that is, of course, not the narrative the MSM wishes upon you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as an agnostic, I have no problems with Ronmey - that is, of course, not the narrative the MSM wishes upon you.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248240</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 04:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248240</guid>
		<description>So first Romney didn&#039;t know &lt;a href=&quot;http://http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/204/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;how long it had been since the Red Sox had won the World Series.&lt;/a&gt;

Now he says he&#039;d rather set up society with Osama bin Laden rather than &lt;a href=&quot;http://http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Main_Page&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
Ted Williams???&lt;/a&gt;

Wow, the authenticity just drips off of him, doesn&#039;t it?  Not.  I thought he was supposed to be like Reagan but he&#039;s starting to seem more like Kerry.  Given that Romney is so into &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/does_a_muslim_belong_in_the_cabinet/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;&gt;
quotas&lt;/a&gt; for deciding who should be in government, perhaps he needs to take a look at the fact that there are a whole lot more non-religious people in America (around 15%, the third largest group after Catholics and Baptists) than there are Mormons.  That he responds to anti-Mormonism by picking on others rather than denouncing or at least distancing himself from bigotry is pathetic.

Unreligious people in the next decade or two will probably be like gay in the 2000s.  The paranoia and bigotry ebb away and suddenly you find out that there are a lot more of them including people you know than you ever realized before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So first Romney didn't know <a href="http://http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/204/" rel="nofollow">how long it had been since the Red Sox had won the World Series.</a></p>
<p>Now he says he'd rather set up society with Osama bin Laden rather than <a href="http://http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Main_Page" rel="nofollow"><br />
Ted Williams???</a></p>
<p>Wow, the authenticity just drips off of him, doesn't it?  Not.  I thought he was supposed to be like Reagan but he's starting to seem more like Kerry.  Given that Romney is so into <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/does_a_muslim_belong_in_the_cabinet/" rel="nofollow">"&gt;<br />
quotas</a> for deciding who should be in government, perhaps he needs to take a look at the fact that there are a whole lot more non-religious people in America (around 15%, the third largest group after Catholics and Baptists) than there are Mormons.  That he responds to anti-Mormonism by picking on others rather than denouncing or at least distancing himself from bigotry is pathetic.</p>
<p>Unreligious people in the next decade or two will probably be like gay in the 2000s.  The paranoia and bigotry ebb away and suddenly you find out that there are a lot more of them including people you know than you ever realized before.</p>
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		<title>By: jpe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248148</link>
		<dc:creator>jpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248148</guid>
		<description>Hunter of redstate sure seems like a weasel.  Rather than defend the idea that secularists are subversive to the body politic, he pulls out a red herring and defends the true but banal and uninteresting thesis that we&#039;ve historically been religious.

Disingenuous hackery at its finest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hunter of redstate sure seems like a weasel.  Rather than defend the idea that secularists are subversive to the body politic, he pulls out a red herring and defends the true but banal and uninteresting thesis that we've historically been religious.</p>
<p>Disingenuous hackery at its finest.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248077</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 22:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248077</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There are no such things as non believers. It is just a matter of whether or not someone chooses to worship God or be God. &quot;You are either with Him or against him.&quot; There is no middle ground. We have seen far too many &quot;atheists&quot; who profess to not believe in a god, spend their entire lives fighting God - hence their claim that God doesn&#039;t exist.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s some high density bull%#%^ you got there, Don.  You might want to look into getting some fiber in your diet to help keep it from getting impacted like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There are no such things as non believers. It is just a matter of whether or not someone chooses to worship God or be God. "You are either with Him or against him." There is no middle ground. We have seen far too many "atheists" who profess to not believe in a god, spend their entire lives fighting God - hence their claim that God doesn't exist.
</p></blockquote>
<p>That's some high density bull%#%^ you got there, Don.  You might want to look into getting some fiber in your diet to help keep it from getting impacted like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248067</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 22:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248067</guid>
		<description>There are no such things as non believers. It is just a matter of whether or not someone chooses to worship God or be God. &quot;You are either with Him or against him.&quot; There is no middle ground. We have seen far too many &quot;atheists&quot;  who profess to not believe in a god, spend their entire lives fighting God - hence their claim that God doesn&#039;t exist.

Their gods may be the almighty state, or science, or sex, or wealth, or power, or knowledge, but it usually comes down to the fact that the godless chose self to have complete faith in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are no such things as non believers. It is just a matter of whether or not someone chooses to worship God or be God. "You are either with Him or against him." There is no middle ground. We have seen far too many "atheists"  who profess to not believe in a god, spend their entire lives fighting God - hence their claim that God doesn't exist.</p>
<p>Their gods may be the almighty state, or science, or sex, or wealth, or power, or knowledge, but it usually comes down to the fact that the godless chose self to have complete faith in.</p>
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		<title>By: spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248033</link>
		<dc:creator>spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248033</guid>
		<description>One of the worse things our founding fathers could envision were the Puritans in New England or the Quakers in Pennsylvania or the Catholics in Maryland or the Cavaliers in Virginia, etc., etc., having the power to impose their beliefs on them --if they belonged to another group.  Moreover, they had just observed 200 years of religious strife in England that at times actually turned into a civil war as first one group and then the other used the power of the crown to impose their beliefs on the others.

This is why they wrote the Constitution they way they did. It is also why the religious right is completely wrong and so dangerous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the worse things our founding fathers could envision were the Puritans in New England or the Quakers in Pennsylvania or the Catholics in Maryland or the Cavaliers in Virginia, etc., etc., having the power to impose their beliefs on them --if they belonged to another group.  Moreover, they had just observed 200 years of religious strife in England that at times actually turned into a civil war as first one group and then the other used the power of the crown to impose their beliefs on the others.</p>
<p>This is why they wrote the Constitution they way they did. It is also why the religious right is completely wrong and so dangerous.</p>
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		<title>By: Tano</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248021</link>
		<dc:creator>Tano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248021</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the details, Dave.

I think it just drives home the point that the notion of religious liberty for all, as opposed to just for one&#039;s own group, arose from pragmatic democratic compromise, not from any inherint religious principle.

Maybe we could just consider the notion of religious liberty to be the 18th century version of multi-culturalism.

But who, in the context of a presidential campaign, would make an argument like that? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the details, Dave.</p>
<p>I think it just drives home the point that the notion of religious liberty for all, as opposed to just for one's own group, arose from pragmatic democratic compromise, not from any inherint religious principle.</p>
<p>Maybe we could just consider the notion of religious liberty to be the 18th century version of multi-culturalism.</p>
<p>But who, in the context of a presidential campaign, would make an argument like that? :)</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248009</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248009</guid>
		<description>BTW in Utah the Mormon church was established at least to some degree long after the Civil War.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW in Utah the Mormon church was established at least to some degree long after the Civil War.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-248005</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-248005</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
we would probably had an established church in this country, as we did in some of the early colonies.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Connecticut had an established church until 1818, Massachusetts until 1833.  There were locally established churches that persisted much, much longer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
we would probably had an established church in this country, as we did in some of the early colonies.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Connecticut had an established church until 1818, Massachusetts until 1833.  There were locally established churches that persisted much, much longer.</p>
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		<title>By: Tano</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-247990</link>
		<dc:creator>Tano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-247990</guid>
		<description>I am reminded of a cartoon by Gary Larson, in the Far Side series. There is a hunter aiming his gun at a couple of bears. We see down the sights, and the bear in the crosshairs is frantically waving to the hunter and pointing him toward the other bear.

Romney seems to be in the crosshairs of the religious bigots, and his efforts seem to be a plea for them to accept him in their fold, so that together they can go to war against the real enemy, the non-believers.

As others have noted, the problem is most certainly not that he failed to mention non-beleivers, it is that he explicitly outlined his vision for an American community of ideas, with faith as its defining feature.

Most of the progress that has ever been achieved in terms of the advancement of liberty has come about in opposition to religion, not because of it.

In fact, were it not for the fact that America was settled by a diverse group of denominations, making the primacy of any one problematical, and thus necessitating a compromise to democratic reality, we would probably had an established church in this country, as we did in some of the early colonies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am reminded of a cartoon by Gary Larson, in the Far Side series. There is a hunter aiming his gun at a couple of bears. We see down the sights, and the bear in the crosshairs is frantically waving to the hunter and pointing him toward the other bear.</p>
<p>Romney seems to be in the crosshairs of the religious bigots, and his efforts seem to be a plea for them to accept him in their fold, so that together they can go to war against the real enemy, the non-believers.</p>
<p>As others have noted, the problem is most certainly not that he failed to mention non-beleivers, it is that he explicitly outlined his vision for an American community of ideas, with faith as its defining feature.</p>
<p>Most of the progress that has ever been achieved in terms of the advancement of liberty has come about in opposition to religion, not because of it.</p>
<p>In fact, were it not for the fact that America was settled by a diverse group of denominations, making the primacy of any one problematical, and thus necessitating a compromise to democratic reality, we would probably had an established church in this country, as we did in some of the early colonies.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/comment-page-1/#comment-247984</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/does_romneys_america_include_non-believers/#comment-247984</guid>
		<description>A major GOP candidate for president regards those smart enough not to be religious as second class citizens...

And?

Who can really be surprised by this, given the state of things today?  

Sorry, it&#039;s just hard to get worked up about this when it&#039;s been the case for a long long time.


&lt;blockquote&gt;You&#039;ll notice he also didn&#039;t mention the satan worshipers, so by the same logic of the Washington Post, by failing to mention it he showed not even &quot;perfunctory inclusion&quot; of the satan worshipers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

YAJ manages to inadvertantly show why I don&#039;t worry too overly much about the stupid theocrats in america: they are always too busy hurting each other to do much damage to the rest of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A major GOP candidate for president regards those smart enough not to be religious as second class citizens...</p>
<p>And?</p>
<p>Who can really be surprised by this, given the state of things today?  </p>
<p>Sorry, it's just hard to get worked up about this when it's been the case for a long long time.</p>
<blockquote><p>You'll notice he also didn't mention the satan worshipers, so by the same logic of the Washington Post, by failing to mention it he showed not even "perfunctory inclusion" of the satan worshipers.</p></blockquote>
<p>YAJ manages to inadvertantly show why I don't worry too overly much about the stupid theocrats in america: they are always too busy hurting each other to do much damage to the rest of us.</p>
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