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	<title>Comments on: Educating the Masses</title>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-447820</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A peek at &lt;a href=&quot;http://boortz.com/nuze/200807/07092008.html#schools&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Boortz this morning&lt;/a&gt;, by some serendipity or other, shows a different take on education, and one I alluded to earlier in this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A peek at <a href="http://boortz.com/nuze/200807/07092008.html#schools" rel="nofollow">Boortz this morning</a>, by some serendipity or other, shows a different take on education, and one I alluded to earlier in this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff b</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-447393</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 03:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-447393</guid>
		<description>The college education gap between current 30-somethings and their parents is troubling.  It means that their parents really failed to pass along the educational capital that is part of the social contract between generations (you know, the one that says if you pass something to your kids, they&#039;ll take care of you when you&#039;re old.)  When the 50-year-olds of today were in college, public colleges and universities were heavily funded by taxes.  Today public funding for universities is less than one third what it was in 1970.  The cost of education has shifted from society in general to the student individual.  No wonder then that the economic returns are part of the student&#039;s decision to skip college.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The college education gap between current 30-somethings and their parents is troubling.  It means that their parents really failed to pass along the educational capital that is part of the social contract between generations (you know, the one that says if you pass something to your kids, they'll take care of you when you're old.)  When the 50-year-olds of today were in college, public colleges and universities were heavily funded by taxes.  Today public funding for universities is less than one third what it was in 1970.  The cost of education has shifted from society in general to the student individual.  No wonder then that the economic returns are part of the student's decision to skip college.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-447257</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DL I get frustrated with the &quot;my kid is perfect&quot; routine.  I think that is one thing that has changed since I was in school.  Now when a kid acts up a teacher gets to hear how it couldn&#039;t have been junior that did it-or that junior never does that stuff at home so he couldn&#039;t be doing it at school. 

Although I also think a lot of common sense has been taken out of the discipline codes as well.  When I was in high school if you brought a water gun to school generally the worst thing that happened was a detention, usually the teacher just confiscated it and didn&#039;t return it.  Now it can get you suspended because it is a gun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DL I get frustrated with the "my kid is perfect" routine.  I think that is one thing that has changed since I was in school.  Now when a kid acts up a teacher gets to hear how it couldn't have been junior that did it-or that junior never does that stuff at home so he couldn't be doing it at school. </p>
<p>Although I also think a lot of common sense has been taken out of the discipline codes as well.  When I was in high school if you brought a water gun to school generally the worst thing that happened was a detention, usually the teacher just confiscated it and didn't return it.  Now it can get you suspended because it is a gun.</p>
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		<title>By: DL</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-447200</link>
		<dc:creator>DL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-447200</guid>
		<description>An archer can&#039;t shoot too well with a cement arrow, nor can a top jockey win a Derby with a three  legged mule.

Perhaps,those of us who attended schools sent by parents who demanded nothing but our best, had a big advantage over todays TV and coarsened culture-raised kids, often with parents who are quick to blame the schools instead of supporting them. Having taught in both environments since 1962,I can say that things are not the same - politically driven agendas, broken homes, victim attitudes, my kid is perfect, unearned self esteem games, massive numbers of special education kids, ADHD, and on and on.

Still, it does show hints of turning the corner now and then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An archer can't shoot too well with a cement arrow, nor can a top jockey win a Derby with a three  legged mule.</p>
<p>Perhaps,those of us who attended schools sent by parents who demanded nothing but our best, had a big advantage over todays TV and coarsened culture-raised kids, often with parents who are quick to blame the schools instead of supporting them. Having taught in both environments since 1962,I can say that things are not the same - politically driven agendas, broken homes, victim attitudes, my kid is perfect, unearned self esteem games, massive numbers of special education kids, ADHD, and on and on.</p>
<p>Still, it does show hints of turning the corner now and then.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-447189</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-447189</guid>
		<description>Steve I was addressing a comment made about graduation rates from high schools being lower.

But I agree that return on investment is a huge infuence.

When I got my MS degree almost 20 years ago it was less than $1,000 a semester. At the same institution it is somewhere in the $6,000 range.  So a degree that was roughly $2,000 and very doable without the need for loans now costs about $24,000 and comes with a loan in addition to whatever was borrowed for the undergraduate degree.  

I imagine the 30-34 cohort is still paying off their undergraduate degrees and aren&#039;t looking to take on more debt-especially since those in this cohort are also usually at the age when having kids has begun-not always a good time to take on debt and the responsibility of getting a degree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve I was addressing a comment made about graduation rates from high schools being lower.</p>
<p>But I agree that return on investment is a huge infuence.</p>
<p>When I got my MS degree almost 20 years ago it was less than $1,000 a semester. At the same institution it is somewhere in the $6,000 range.  So a degree that was roughly $2,000 and very doable without the need for loans now costs about $24,000 and comes with a loan in addition to whatever was borrowed for the undergraduate degree.  </p>
<p>I imagine the 30-34 cohort is still paying off their undergraduate degrees and aren't looking to take on more debt-especially since those in this cohort are also usually at the age when having kids has begun-not always a good time to take on debt and the responsibility of getting a degree.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Plunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-447142</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Plunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-447142</guid>
		<description>Dave Schuler hit a bullseye.  With the cost of college rising out of control the return on investment for advanced degrees for the 30-34 group is less than it was for those in the 55-59 group.  I would think especially for advanced degrees in social sciences, arts, and English.

I doubt this has much to do with how we raise our kids or how high schools don&#039;t prepare them well.  By the time they are in college they will make their own choices and economics will play a large role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave Schuler hit a bullseye.  With the cost of college rising out of control the return on investment for advanced degrees for the 30-34 group is less than it was for those in the 55-59 group.  I would think especially for advanced degrees in social sciences, arts, and English.</p>
<p>I doubt this has much to do with how we raise our kids or how high schools don't prepare them well.  By the time they are in college they will make their own choices and economics will play a large role.</p>
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		<title>By: John425</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-447033</link>
		<dc:creator>John425</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-447033</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;just me&lt;/em&gt;: I certainly agree that not all kids are suitable for college. I am a product of the Boston Public School System (+-100 years ago). Then, there were two &quot;tracks&quot; one chose (or was steered to by teachers) College Prep or Trades.

High Schools were actual training schools or as they are now called in Seattle -&quot;magnet schools&quot;. Boston English (lit/arts) Boston Tech (Technical arts-drafting, etc) Boston Commerce (Business) and then the so-called &quot;trade&quot; schools...East Boston High (automotive) Brighton High (automotive and metal works) and so on.
As I look back on it it becomes obvious that certain high schools were actually Voc-Ed schools.

Pretty slick. I went to Boston Tech High to be an architect- wound up with a BS in Pre-Med courtesy of the USAF. Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>just me</em>: I certainly agree that not all kids are suitable for college. I am a product of the Boston Public School System (+-100 years ago). Then, there were two "tracks" one chose (or was steered to by teachers) College Prep or Trades.</p>
<p>High Schools were actual training schools or as they are now called in Seattle -"magnet schools". Boston English (lit/arts) Boston Tech (Technical arts-drafting, etc) Boston Commerce (Business) and then the so-called "trade" schools...East Boston High (automotive) Brighton High (automotive and metal works) and so on.<br />
As I look back on it it becomes obvious that certain high schools were actually Voc-Ed schools.</p>
<p>Pretty slick. I went to Boston Tech High to be an architect- wound up with a BS in Pre-Med courtesy of the USAF. Go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-446936</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>John I don&#039;t think it is that the educators don&#039;t see it as wrong, but teachers very quickly become frustrated and cynical when working in a district where parents don&#039;t give a flip and the parents consider the school the free baby sitting service rather than an opportunity for education and betterment.

I think one reason students don&#039;t graduate is that they aren&#039;t looking towards the future and school itself is becoming very &quot;everyone needs to go to college&quot; focused.  If you have a student who doesn&#039;t excel academically and they are in a school where non college options aren&#039;t strongly provided and supported, the result is kids who don&#039;t care about their educations now or in the future.  They give up=school is a social opportunity and that is it.

Not every kid is suitable for college.  Some would be better suited in a vocational or technical program.  I think high schools would do better to steer kids uninterested in college into suitable programs.  Some schools are starting to head this direction again.  My sister has a niece uninterested in school who will have her cosmotology certification when she graduates from high school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John I don't think it is that the educators don't see it as wrong, but teachers very quickly become frustrated and cynical when working in a district where parents don't give a flip and the parents consider the school the free baby sitting service rather than an opportunity for education and betterment.</p>
<p>I think one reason students don't graduate is that they aren't looking towards the future and school itself is becoming very "everyone needs to go to college" focused.  If you have a student who doesn't excel academically and they are in a school where non college options aren't strongly provided and supported, the result is kids who don't care about their educations now or in the future.  They give up=school is a social opportunity and that is it.</p>
<p>Not every kid is suitable for college.  Some would be better suited in a vocational or technical program.  I think high schools would do better to steer kids uninterested in college into suitable programs.  Some schools are starting to head this direction again.  My sister has a niece uninterested in school who will have her cosmotology certification when she graduates from high school.</p>
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		<title>By: John425</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-446767</link>
		<dc:creator>John425</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 20:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-446767</guid>
		<description>&quot;...falling graduation rates. 

One significant factor is legal &amp; illegal Third Worlders who have no desire to assimilate.  The legal immigrant component then sees that the illegal immigrant component have taken all the entry-level jobs. This phenomenon is called being &quot;Doubly Screwed&quot;.

The other component: inner city dropout youth (black or white) get tempted into illegal activities by the glamor of the gang-banger and drug cultures. This phenomenon is called &quot;Screwing Yourself&quot;.

Neither the parents, nor the educators, nor the politicians see anything wrong with the above situations. This phenomenon is called &quot;Screw it&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"...falling graduation rates. </p>
<p>One significant factor is legal &amp; illegal Third Worlders who have no desire to assimilate.  The legal immigrant component then sees that the illegal immigrant component have taken all the entry-level jobs. This phenomenon is called being "Doubly Screwed".</p>
<p>The other component: inner city dropout youth (black or white) get tempted into illegal activities by the glamor of the gang-banger and drug cultures. This phenomenon is called "Screwing Yourself".</p>
<p>Neither the parents, nor the educators, nor the politicians see anything wrong with the above situations. This phenomenon is called "Screw it".</p>
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		<title>By: yetanotherjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-446764</link>
		<dc:creator>yetanotherjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-446764</guid>
		<description>Assuming the number of advanced degrees was really an issue, we could solve it almost over night by changing the immigration quotas. Get an advanced degree, come to the US. Degrees from the US go to the front of the line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Assuming the number of advanced degrees was really an issue, we could solve it almost over night by changing the immigration quotas. Get an advanced degree, come to the US. Degrees from the US go to the front of the line.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-446753</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-446753</guid>
		<description>I suspect that the most important factor is incentives.  College educations are a major investment in time, money, and effort and jobs aren&#039;t being created  that justify the investment.

For the last several years it&#039;s been more prudent to find a job in the construction trades than to pursue a college degree.

With the exception of health care salaries have been pretty flat in most technical fields for the last seven or eight years.  In many of those years the number of jobs created for electrical engineers, for example, grew by nearly precisely the number of H1-B visas for electrical engineeers in that year.

Health care degree programs (physicians, nursing, technicians) have waiting lists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that the most important factor is incentives.  College educations are a major investment in time, money, and effort and jobs aren't being created  that justify the investment.</p>
<p>For the last several years it's been more prudent to find a job in the construction trades than to pursue a college degree.</p>
<p>With the exception of health care salaries have been pretty flat in most technical fields for the last seven or eight years.  In many of those years the number of jobs created for electrical engineers, for example, grew by nearly precisely the number of H1-B visas for electrical engineeers in that year.</p>
<p>Health care degree programs (physicians, nursing, technicians) have waiting lists.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-446747</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24268#comment-446747</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In 2006, Americans aged 55-59 collectively possessed more masters degrees, professional degrees and doctorates than Americans aged 30-34.” &lt;/blockquote&gt;Collectively?  Not proportionally?  That a generation born during high birth rates has collectively more of anything than a generation born during low birth rates would surprise anybody is the real shocker here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In 2006, Americans aged 55-59 collectively possessed more masters degrees, professional degrees and doctorates than Americans aged 30-34.” </p></blockquote>
<p>Collectively?  Not proportionally?  That a generation born during high birth rates has collectively more of anything than a generation born during low birth rates would surprise anybody is the real shocker here.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-446723</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Not even sure that&#039;s valid, Spence.

I submit that the one thing that comes as clear about all of this is that our definition of what constitutes &#039;education&quot; has changed over the last 60 years. As such and as a first effort, we&#039;d better define &quot;educated&quot;.  In short, define please, what we&#039;re aiming for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not even sure that's valid, Spence.</p>
<p>I submit that the one thing that comes as clear about all of this is that our definition of what constitutes 'education" has changed over the last 60 years. As such and as a first effort, we'd better define "educated".  In short, define please, what we're aiming for.</p>
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		<title>By: spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/educating_the_masses/comment-page-1/#comment-446714</link>
		<dc:creator>spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I suggest you look at the drop in high school graduates as a lagged function of the share of  children in single parent families.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest you look at the drop in high school graduates as a lagged function of the share of  children in single parent families.</p>
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