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	<title>Comments on: Education and the Good Old Days</title>
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		<title>By: hln</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-335362</link>
		<dc:creator>hln</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-335362</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not what we&#039;re teaching now, it&#039;s what we&#039;re learning and retaining that determines how educated we are.

You&#039;re looking at it from a somewhat elitist perspective.  You probably worked hard and applied yourself all the way through the Ph.d level.  But getting to and through college really no longer requires that hard work.  People cheat and cut corners and don&#039;t realize (I didn&#039;t really until grad school) that what really matters most for later in life and applicability of what you&#039;re being taught is that what you put INTO your efforts is what determines the outcome; the grade means nothing.

I think this generation of parents isn&#039;t doing as well in teaching its children the meaning and value of work ethic.  And teachers are poorly compensated at the elementary and secondary education levels, so it&#039;s not an attractive profession to people who could otherwise make scads of money in other fields. Some do it anyway, thankfully.  

For all of you who talk about what your children are learning, I ask this:  what are they retaining?  

(And I&#039;m thankful for home ec I took at 13.  Otherwise I&#039;m not sure I could sew a button.) 

hln</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's not what we're teaching now, it's what we're learning and retaining that determines how educated we are.</p>
<p>You're looking at it from a somewhat elitist perspective.  You probably worked hard and applied yourself all the way through the Ph.d level.  But getting to and through college really no longer requires that hard work.  People cheat and cut corners and don't realize (I didn't really until grad school) that what really matters most for later in life and applicability of what you're being taught is that what you put INTO your efforts is what determines the outcome; the grade means nothing.</p>
<p>I think this generation of parents isn't doing as well in teaching its children the meaning and value of work ethic.  And teachers are poorly compensated at the elementary and secondary education levels, so it's not an attractive profession to people who could otherwise make scads of money in other fields. Some do it anyway, thankfully.  </p>
<p>For all of you who talk about what your children are learning, I ask this:  what are they retaining?  </p>
<p>(And I'm thankful for home ec I took at 13.  Otherwise I'm not sure I could sew a button.) </p>
<p>hln</p>
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		<title>By: John425</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334269</link>
		<dc:creator>John425</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334269</guid>
		<description>My entire high school was AP. If someone flunked out at Boston Technical High (late 1950s) they had to apply elswhere in the Boston School System. Repeats were not allowed.

BTW: Also missing from the data is the dropout rate. I believe it skyrocketed to outer space compared to a couple of decades ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My entire high school was AP. If someone flunked out at Boston Technical High (late 1950s) they had to apply elswhere in the Boston School System. Repeats were not allowed.</p>
<p>BTW: Also missing from the data is the dropout rate. I believe it skyrocketed to outer space compared to a couple of decades ago.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334182</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334182</guid>
		<description>Anderson: Having taught American Government to education majors, I concur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anderson: Having taught American Government to education majors, I concur.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334163</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334163</guid>
		<description>Teacher quality has declined since our parents&#039; generation.

For a long time, America benefited from sexual discrimination.  Smart women had relatively few job options, and teaching grade school was one of them.

Now, most people smart enough to be really good teachers are doing something else that pays three to five times as much, plus doesn&#039;t require them to put up with the much worse disciplinary situation in many schools today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teacher quality has declined since our parents' generation.</p>
<p>For a long time, America benefited from sexual discrimination.  Smart women had relatively few job options, and teaching grade school was one of them.</p>
<p>Now, most people smart enough to be really good teachers are doing something else that pays three to five times as much, plus doesn't require them to put up with the much worse disciplinary situation in many schools today.</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334158</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334158</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Shop? Gone.
Typing? Mostly gone.
HomEc? Gone (it&#039;s sexist, dontcha know?)&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Not necessarily. I don&#039;t know about shop, that may be due to insurance concerns :-) but the others are alive and well. &quot;Typing&quot; is now &quot;keyboarding&quot;; and while I remember hearing about Typing being a requirement for girls once upon a time (for those secretarial positions, I figured), Keyboarding is required for both genders for computer-based courses. And as for Home Ec, I (a male, fyi) had to take it back in the 7th grade (1982). I made a white buffalo stuffed animal for the sewing part. My daughter, currently in 6th grade, made a stuffed basset hound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Shop? Gone.<br />
Typing? Mostly gone.<br />
HomEc? Gone (it's sexist, dontcha know?)</p></blockquote>
<p>Not necessarily. I don't know about shop, that may be due to insurance concerns :-) but the others are alive and well. "Typing" is now "keyboarding"; and while I remember hearing about Typing being a requirement for girls once upon a time (for those secretarial positions, I figured), Keyboarding is required for both genders for computer-based courses. And as for Home Ec, I (a male, fyi) had to take it back in the 7th grade (1982). I made a white buffalo stuffed animal for the sewing part. My daughter, currently in 6th grade, made a stuffed basset hound.</p>
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		<title>By: Grewgills</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334155</link>
		<dc:creator>Grewgills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334155</guid>
		<description>The drop in SAT scores is also partially due to almost every high school student taking the test at least once prior to graduation whether or not they plan to attend college.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The drop in SAT scores is also partially due to almost every high school student taking the test at least once prior to graduation whether or not they plan to attend college.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334140</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334140</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;From a population of roughly 200 million compared to the present population of 300 million.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But of an older population where people have fewer kids, yes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>From a population of roughly 200 million compared to the present population of 300 million.</p></blockquote>
<p>But of an older population where people have fewer kids, yes?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334101</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334101</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
There were 1.627 million high school graduates annually then, compared to 2.8 million now.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
From a population of roughly 200 million compared to the present population of 300 million.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
There were 1.627 million high school graduates annually then, compared to 2.8 million now.
</p></blockquote>
<p>From a population of roughly 200 million compared to the present population of 300 million.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Newquist</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334095</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Newquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334095</guid>
		<description>&quot;The first of these is almost certainly true. A high school diploma is worse less than it was a generation ago but it’s almost impossible to get a earn enough to make a decent living without one.&quot;

Part of the reason for this is because the working world demands higher education, as you seem to have assumed throughout the rest of your post. But part of it is because despite learning about genetics in elementary school, education through the high school level these days teaches students approximately zero real world working skills.

Shop? Gone.
Typing? Mostly gone.
HomEc? Gone (it&#039;s sexist, dontcha know?)

Also, despite the standardized testing and national scrutiny are commonplace now precisely *BECAUSE* of the slip in school standards. There&#039;s been a huge but quiet emphasis in the last decade or so on just pushing people through the system, regardless of whether they&#039;ve learned anything or not. I was in the class of 1996 and the problem was already bad. My teachers made a direct push to bend/break any rule they could to achieve 100% graduation in the class before me. I have good friends who, even though they were and are friends, I have to admit *shouldn&#039;t* have graduated that year. Yet they did.

My wife graduated in 2006 (yeah, I married a youngster)... and these days, the system is teetering on the edge of disaster. It&#039;s easy to miss from the outside. My dad sent four children to the same high school and still thinks nothing&#039;s wrong with it. My siblings and I know better. Administrators are masters of presenting parents with what they want to see.

The problems are almost too much to list here, but they&#039;re systemic, not localized. And they&#039;re getting worse each year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The first of these is almost certainly true. A high school diploma is worse less than it was a generation ago but it&rsquo;s almost impossible to get a earn enough to make a decent living without one."</p>
<p>Part of the reason for this is because the working world demands higher education, as you seem to have assumed throughout the rest of your post. But part of it is because despite learning about genetics in elementary school, education through the high school level these days teaches students approximately zero real world working skills.</p>
<p>Shop? Gone.<br />
Typing? Mostly gone.<br />
HomEc? Gone (it's sexist, dontcha know?)</p>
<p>Also, despite the standardized testing and national scrutiny are commonplace now precisely *BECAUSE* of the slip in school standards. There's been a huge but quiet emphasis in the last decade or so on just pushing people through the system, regardless of whether they've learned anything or not. I was in the class of 1996 and the problem was already bad. My teachers made a direct push to bend/break any rule they could to achieve 100% graduation in the class before me. I have good friends who, even though they were and are friends, I have to admit *shouldn't* have graduated that year. Yet they did.</p>
<p>My wife graduated in 2006 (yeah, I married a youngster)... and these days, the system is teetering on the edge of disaster. It's easy to miss from the outside. My dad sent four children to the same high school and still thinks nothing's wrong with it. My siblings and I know better. Administrators are masters of presenting parents with what they want to see.</p>
<p>The problems are almost too much to list here, but they're systemic, not localized. And they're getting worse each year.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334094</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334094</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I graduated from high school nearly 20 years before you did and practically every course I took (math, chemistry, physics, English, Russian) was AP.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Interesting.  We didn&#039;t have Russian available but I took all the other course as &quot;college prep&quot; electives. They started &quot;AP&quot; in 1985 or 1986 at my school.  Alabama&#039;s definitely behind the curve on such things but I wouldn&#039;t think it would be 20 years!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I graduated from high school nearly 20 years before you did and practically every course I took (math, chemistry, physics, English, Russian) was AP.</p></blockquote>
<p>Interesting.  We didn't have Russian available but I took all the other course as "college prep" electives. They started "AP" in 1985 or 1986 at my school.  Alabama's definitely behind the curve on such things but I wouldn't think it would be 20 years!</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick T. McGuire</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334085</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick T. McGuire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334085</guid>
		<description>Back in 2004, there was a story here of a woman who had graduated from high school with a perfect 4.0 GPA. She was real proud of herself until she applied for admission to college. She was required to take a year of remedial courses in reading and math before she could take her main courses.

I now have a 7 yr. old son in the first grade. He is being required to learn material that I didn&#039;t have to learn until perhaps the 3rd grade (it&#039;s been a long time so I can&#039;t remember accurately) or later. And the benchmarks for testing keep moving all the time. As his performace improves, he keeps falling further behind in the new standards.

He may not be at the top of his class by the time he graduates high school, but he will be better educated than I was and I took several AP courses as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in 2004, there was a story here of a woman who had graduated from high school with a perfect 4.0 GPA. She was real proud of herself until she applied for admission to college. She was required to take a year of remedial courses in reading and math before she could take her main courses.</p>
<p>I now have a 7 yr. old son in the first grade. He is being required to learn material that I didn't have to learn until perhaps the 3rd grade (it's been a long time so I can't remember accurately) or later. And the benchmarks for testing keep moving all the time. As his performace improves, he keeps falling further behind in the new standards.</p>
<p>He may not be at the top of his class by the time he graduates high school, but he will be better educated than I was and I took several AP courses as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/education_and_the_good_old_days/comment-page-1/#comment-334058</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/04/education_and_the_good_old_days/#comment-334058</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
When I graduated high school in 1984, there were no advanced placement courses available
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Really?  I graduated from high school nearly 20 years before you did and practically every course I took (math, chemistry, physics, English, Russian) was AP.  I actually got advanced placement for them (which, apparently, has become rarer than it used to be), entering college, essentially, as a junior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
When I graduated high school in 1984, there were no advanced placement courses available
</p></blockquote>
<p>Really?  I graduated from high school nearly 20 years before you did and practically every course I took (math, chemistry, physics, English, Russian) was AP.  I actually got advanced placement for them (which, apparently, has become rarer than it used to be), entering college, essentially, as a junior.</p>
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