Comments on: Fair Tax Crankery

By: Dennis

Dennis — Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:33:25 +0000

Susan, I must be missing something? I looked through all of the posts and didn't see the word Liberal used in any of the previous posts with the exception of my Last post (used it once) which was referring to some of Senator Gravel's more "liberal causes". I also recognized that their are MANY Democrats who support the Fair Tax. My quandry and question is why more Democrat Leaders do not publicly support the Fair Tax? I have talked to Many Democrat Fair Tax supporters and they are just as passionate about this plan as the Republican supporters are and I don't attempt to paint them all with a wide brush. However, I will not back away from the statement that some / most of the Democratic Presidential Candidates support "Liberal Causes" in the modern political sense of the word. There is another, more appropriate, but far more divisive word for things like Government Provided Universal Healthcare, and that is Socialism (look up that definition in Webster's Dictionary), but I wasn't trying to be divisive, just point out the fact that some issues that most Democrat Presidential hopefuls support are too far left for me to vote for them if they were running against a Republican who is equally supportive of the Fair Tax.

By: Susan

Susan — Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:50:11 +0000

Sprinkled liberally throughout these comments is the word "liberal." I'm baffled by that, and the unreasonably pervasive insistence that all Democrats are liberal, all liberals are Democrats, and all of the above are against the Fair Tax. Please read the article (see link) for the best definition of "liberal" I've seen yet. (Some of you may take exception to #6, but that's fodder for another debate.) And, for the record, I belong to a group of more than 400 registered Florida Dems who are pro Fair Tax. We're so tired of the labels - they're pointless because they no longer accurately describe anything - so please stick to the issues without using them. From the many people I've spoken with, I believe there are equal numbers of Democrats and Republicans who support (or are opposed to) the Fair Tax. Let's leave partisanship out of this - it just muddies things.

By: Dennis

Dennis — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 19:04:38 +0000

Mr. Blixx I have looked at the website you suggest and it took me about 10 seconds to realize that 95% of what was said on that site can be totally blown out of the water with FACT. I would very much welcome an honest debate on facts, and I absolutely guarantee that if you stick to the information on that website, I will utterly blow you and the Lies and Mis-information out of the water. It's no wonder that most Fair Taxers would respond to some of the nonsense on that site with "Just Read the Book", because most of the mis-information on that site is SO elementarily dishonest that it's almost not worth the time to get any deeper than that with you. You REALLY need to do some HONEST Research. I am a college educated, self-employed, military veteran, have several children, upper middle class, who has worked his way up from poverty, So there is NO WAY I would support anything that even came close to sounding like what you or the website you suggest spouts. I love my family and my country too much to support anything that had a hint of what you espouse. And not only has the Fair Tax been researched (by many highly esteemed and educated individuals) and been proven that it will work, but I HAVE also personally researched the concepts and figures enough to feel VERY confident in what the "Fair Taxers" have presented to the American public. And just so you know, there are quite a few Democrats who DO support the Fair Tax. Even Mit Romney who hasn't come out in full support yet, said today before a meeting here in my city, that he can see how the Fair Tax will HELP the poor, and will be a bit tougher on people "like me" (Very Wealthy)...and he's right, therein lies the rub. If you REALLY understand the Fair Tax you will find out that one of the most attractive things about the plan is that it will take away alot of Influence from the Wealthy who lobby for Tax Loopholes, and power from the power hungry politicians that like to use the loopholes in their search to maintain power or acquire even greater power. Although this is a great aspect of the plan, it also make the Fair Tax a Target from people on Both sides of the political spectrum. And one last thing you should know.... I personally, although I consider myself a conservative, would Gladly vote for an HONEST Democrat who would fully back the Fair Tax plan without changes, and there are Many just like me out here. There are so many good things for a Democrat to take from this plan, it makes no sense that more haven't gotten on board. Although I think Senator Gravel is a little too far "out there" for me to use my vote on him, he supports the Fair Tax, and has some Outstanding ideas on how the Fair Tax would help some of the Liberal causes.

By: John Blixx

John Blixx — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:39:17 +0000

Sir, there is no disrespect intended. But there are no lies either. I encourage everyone to visit both fairtax and fairtaxfraud websites and make up their own minds.

Respectfully,
John Blixx
FTF Institute

By: Dennis

Dennis — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:35:48 +0000

John Blix why is it that you must be so dis-honest just because you disagree with the Fair Tax. Your willing to lie and manipulate facts in an attempt to discourage people from giving the Fair Tax the consideration it deserves. Every line of your post is either a downright lie or absolutely mis-leading. Mr. Blix if you have legitimate facts to debate, let's do that, you'll be much more successful manipulating and twisting actual numbers, than to come up with such obvious and blatant mis-information and lies. You must have some SERIOUS ax to grind with those who might threaten your precious I.R.S., are you an Agent? or A D.C. Tax Lobbyist? I can refute..with FACT, everyword of your post, but it's obvious that your not interested in facts, so I will not waste my time. Anyone who really wants to know the facts can simple spend an Hour or Two reading the Fair Tax book and will see that Mr. Blix has a problem.......he can't back up anything he's stated. http://www.fairtax.org to read the entire bill if you like, nothing to hide, no disceptions, unlike Mr. Blix post.

By: Scooter

Scooter — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:29:48 +0000

It is unfortunate that the FairTax is so easily demagogued by people who likely have a vested interest in preserving the centralized power bestowed by the income tax. Envy and animosity are bad characteristics and the cornerstone of collectivist politics, sad! It is envy and animosity that are dividing this country.

Can one be free and dependent?

By: floyd

floyd — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:14:20 +0000

M1EK;
When you buy bonds , do you consider it savings or spending?

By: Phil

Phil — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:08:03 +0000

The toughest part about the Fair Tax is wrapping one's head around the complete paradigm shift that it entails. It is not a 30% exclusive tax that is plopped onto goods and services at the retail level. Think of it this way: 23 cents of every dollar spent at the retail level is sent to the Feds. It is inclusive. Remove all the embedded taxes along the way (approximately 22 - 23% of the final cost), replace it with the 23% tax at the register and you have a wash. The good or service costs very close to the same.

Oh, also, the Fair Tax has NOTHING to do with Scientology. Yes, the Scientologists have/had a front group called Citizens for an Alternativee Tax System that proposed a 17% national sales tax in addition to the payroll taxes an other federal levies. COMPLETELY different plan and group.

All of this misinformation is just demagoguery of the issue from people who haven't taken the time to actually find out what the Fair Tax is.

By: Dennis

Dennis — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 02:37:07 +0000

Thanks Ian - Ugh, My Dollar is taxed by Federal Tax 23%, Soc.Sec./Medicare Tax & matching employer percentage 15%. Then that same dollar must pay the imbedded taxes that are built into to products I purchase to build my estate 23%, which, because I've worked hard to save and build to be able to pass on to my children ....that same dollar can be taxed when I die at 20% (average percent rate).

By: Ian

Ian — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:43:39 +0000

Ugh and Kalthalior, I went to FairTax.org FAQs 16 and 29:

16 Q. How does the Fairtax help seniors who have paid taxes on their retirement savings or invested in Roth IRAs?

A. Simply put, the FairTax is a revenue-neutral proposal, raising no more money than does the current system. The FairTax only changes where the money is raised, not the amount.

Additionally, some erroneously believe that people who have invested in Roth IRAs will never pay taxes on this money again. They may not know it, but they are paying corporate income taxes, employer payroll taxes, plus the associated compliance costs that are hidden in the price of every retail purchase they make. Under the FairTax, these hidden taxes are driven out of retail prices. And note, they elect to pay these taxes through their lifestyle choices.

Furthermore, used goods are not taxed because they have already been taxed once when they were new. Therefore senior citizens, like all Americans, do not lose purchasing power, but gain it instead. Moreover, the FairTax preserves the purchasing power of Social Security benefits and seniors receive a monthly rebate so they don’t pay taxes on the purchase of necessities. Tax-deferred investments get a one-time windfall. Savings invested in any long-term, income-generating asset such as a stock, real estate, or a long-term bond that can’t be called, increase substantially in value. Finally, complex estate planning is an artifact of an earlier age.

29 Q. What happens to the stock market, mutual funds, and retirement funds?

A. Investors prosper greatly under this plan, since corporations face lower operating costs and individuals have more money to save and invest. The reform significantly enhances the retirement savings and/or retirement spending power of most Americans. The purchase of stocks is considered a purchase for investment purposes and not personal consumption so they are purchased tax free. The service fees charged by the broker, however, are personal consumption and therefore subject to tax.

By: Ugh

Ugh — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:49:48 +0000

Dennis - how are you taxed multiple times on the same dollar? What does the estate tax have to do with anything? And I'll reiterate my first question above, will the sale of, for example, publicly traded stock in a corporation be subject to the sales tax?

By: Dennis

Dennis — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:08:33 +0000

So, when the Fair Tax is passed use your $1000 to go buy something USED.. which will not be taxed. Anything saved after the Fair Tax is passed won't be taxed until you spend. Besides, how is it Fair under the current system that I'm taxed MULTIPLE times for the same dollar (which I thought was un-constitutional)? It blows my mind that people would be upset about this, One Time, possible draw back when under the current system people can work hard all of their life, being taxed as they earn their money (multiple times), build up some sort of estate or assets to pass on to their children, just to have half of it taken away (through another tax) when they die. And your going to complain about a 1 time drawback during a change over period to a MUCH better system. Where's the perspective? The current system is unfair, inadequate, and broken and more Tweaking (as people like Romney and Guiliani suggest) will only make matters worse over time. One of the reasons we're where we are is all of the loopholes that the Politicos pine for in the current tax code, these benefit some sometimes and hurt others other times, and in the end hurt the United States as a whole ALL of the time.

By: kalthalior

kalthalior — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:11:08 +0000

Ugh has it right above - how is it fair that the $1000 I have saved in my bank account over a period of some months (and have been taxed on once already) now gets taxed at a 30% rate when I decide to spend it?

By: Dennis

Dennis — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:46:02 +0000

GREAT Rebuttal article! For someone who doesn't know a whole lot about the Fair Tax you were right on target. Looking at the responses to your rebuttal, I can't understand why people don't comprehend the "Revenue Neutral" concept. The first response to you was something about a high sales tax discouraging consumption....ummm What? To repeat a point you made in your article...the 30% tax is already built into CURRENT pricing, the Fair Tax removes those taxes from the price....and places that 30% back into the product in the form of a Sales Tax....the price paid STAYS THE SAME. Second - Everything is already in place to collect the tax, sure it may need some tweaking and beefing up a bit to handle the volume...but it's already there. Third - There is NO reporting or tracking of income involved in the Fair Tax. The only information needed from each household will be the total number within the household. The Pre-bate is based on the Government Established "Poverty Level". The bottom line is that there is currently, NO, Simpler, Fairer, dollar for dollar replacement of the Income Tax currently proposed, by ANYONE. Also, I'm not aware of any Fair Tax tie to Scientology, but it couldn't be any worse than the assertions by some that Federal Reserve is actually a conglomeration of Private bankers, or that the I.R.S. and it's rules are not actually backed up by True U.S. Law, but by misleading court decision's made by confused judges.

By: James Joyner

James Joyner — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:08:17 +0000

So any business in the United States enters the global market with a handicap.

How so? Imported goods would be subject to the identical tax. Exported goods would be subject to whatever tax the importing country imposes on them.