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	<title>Comments on: Gasoline:  $12 Dollars/Gallon Inevitable</title>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-378900</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 02:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-378900</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Weird, especially considering I am not a religious person.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So, you don&#039;t worship Amazons?
 
I&#039;ve made my points elsewhere. 
Government is the reason we&#039;re in the current situation. We cannot, therefore, logically depend on government to get us out of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Weird, especially considering I am not a religious person.</p></blockquote>
<p>So, you don't worship Amazons?</p>
<p>I've made my points elsewhere.<br />
Government is the reason we're in the current situation. We cannot, therefore, logically depend on government to get us out of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-378099</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 18:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-378099</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don&#039;t know, Steve. If there&#039;s a bubble it&#039;s a pretty long-lived one. The time horizon for price increases quoted above doesn&#039;t start early enough. IIRC prices tripled between 1998 and 2004, too.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

How long did the housing bubble last?  How long did the dot.com bubble last?

Further, not all price increases have to be due to bubbles.  That is, price increases in 1998 - 2004 may have logical explanations such as the increase in world wide demand, the Iraq war, etc.  In those cases you might very well expect prices to go up, so you could expect to see steady increases in oil prices over time which have nothing at all do do with a bubble.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Wait, so if the price of oil were expected to go up in the future, it would be going up now, which obviously it is, but our current increase in oil price isn&#039;t evidence of this phenomenon? I&#039;m confused on something here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What Hamilton and Engel are saying is that they see no reason for these price increases.  In short, it isn&#039;t based on anything indicating that oil should be going to $300/barrel, other than that the price is rising.  Now prices can rise for good reasons, or no reason at all.  The latter case is when you may very well have a bubble.

&lt;blockquote&gt;First off, get over that &quot;hybrid&quot; nonsense. The electricity is still coming from oil. Get back to basics.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Uhhhmmmm no.  Currently the fashionable sources of electricity are coal, natural gas, and nuclear, with a smattering of renewables.

&lt;blockquote&gt;An entire hydrogen-cell economy is now almost as affordable as oil. New ways of harnessing geothermal and hydrodynamic are now at least as affordable as oil. Get outside the box, and wake up and smell the 21st century.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Which you are going to use to do what?  Make electricity?  Hmmm, so which statement of yours is true, this one or the one I quoted immediately above?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don't know, Steve. If there's a bubble it's a pretty long-lived one. The time horizon for price increases quoted above doesn't start early enough. IIRC prices tripled between 1998 and 2004, too.</p></blockquote>
<p>How long did the housing bubble last?  How long did the dot.com bubble last?</p>
<p>Further, not all price increases have to be due to bubbles.  That is, price increases in 1998 - 2004 may have logical explanations such as the increase in world wide demand, the Iraq war, etc.  In those cases you might very well expect prices to go up, so you could expect to see steady increases in oil prices over time which have nothing at all do do with a bubble.</p>
<blockquote><p>Wait, so if the price of oil were expected to go up in the future, it would be going up now, which obviously it is, but our current increase in oil price isn't evidence of this phenomenon? I'm confused on something here.</p></blockquote>
<p>What Hamilton and Engel are saying is that they see no reason for these price increases.  In short, it isn't based on anything indicating that oil should be going to $300/barrel, other than that the price is rising.  Now prices can rise for good reasons, or no reason at all.  The latter case is when you may very well have a bubble.</p>
<blockquote><p>First off, get over that "hybrid" nonsense. The electricity is still coming from oil. Get back to basics.</p></blockquote>
<p>Uhhhmmmm no.  Currently the fashionable sources of electricity are coal, natural gas, and nuclear, with a smattering of renewables.</p>
<blockquote><p>An entire hydrogen-cell economy is now almost as affordable as oil. New ways of harnessing geothermal and hydrodynamic are now at least as affordable as oil. Get outside the box, and wake up and smell the 21st century.</p></blockquote>
<p>Which you are going to use to do what?  Make electricity?  Hmmm, so which statement of yours is true, this one or the one I quoted immediately above?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-378054</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 16:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-378054</guid>
		<description>D.H. Strong,
The problem with Wind and Solar is that it&#039;s not storable, you have to use it when you get it, it&#039;s not controllable, you can&#039;t ramp it up or down on demand, and it&#039;s not reliable, you&#039;re at nature&#039;s mercy for your energy source.

Geothermal and Hydro don&#039;t have the above problems, but you&#039;re limited to where you can get that energy from.  If you live somewhere far from a good source of hydro or geothermal, you can&#039;t use them.  Even when they are available, they have a not insignificant environmental impact.

Hydrogen has problems too, it&#039;s hard to store and it&#039;s hard to create.  Most sources of of hydrogen today are from hydrocarbons, especially fossil fuels.  Getting Hydrogen from pure water takes more energy that you can get back, so that&#039;s a non-starter too.

If you want to replace oil and coal, you need an energy source that meets all of these criteria:
1.) Be storable
2a.) Be transportable or
2b.) Be producable anywhere
3.) Be able to control the rate of energy released
4.) Have a consistent and predictable availability

So far the only non-fossil fuels that meet those criteria are biofuels and nuclear.  Biofuels currently suffer from a scalability problem, and nuclear has a waste disposal problem.  

Fusion power is the only long-term sustainable source of energy, but it&#039;s been &quot;10 years away&quot; from breaking even for about 30 years now.  Still, if any technology deserves our money and attention, I think here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D.H. Strong,<br />
The problem with Wind and Solar is that it's not storable, you have to use it when you get it, it's not controllable, you can't ramp it up or down on demand, and it's not reliable, you're at nature's mercy for your energy source.</p>
<p>Geothermal and Hydro don't have the above problems, but you're limited to where you can get that energy from.  If you live somewhere far from a good source of hydro or geothermal, you can't use them.  Even when they are available, they have a not insignificant environmental impact.</p>
<p>Hydrogen has problems too, it's hard to store and it's hard to create.  Most sources of of hydrogen today are from hydrocarbons, especially fossil fuels.  Getting Hydrogen from pure water takes more energy that you can get back, so that's a non-starter too.</p>
<p>If you want to replace oil and coal, you need an energy source that meets all of these criteria:<br />
1.) Be storable<br />
2a.) Be transportable or<br />
2b.) Be producable anywhere<br />
3.) Be able to control the rate of energy released<br />
4.) Have a consistent and predictable availability</p>
<p>So far the only non-fossil fuels that meet those criteria are biofuels and nuclear.  Biofuels currently suffer from a scalability problem, and nuclear has a waste disposal problem.  </p>
<p>Fusion power is the only long-term sustainable source of energy, but it's been "10 years away" from breaking even for about 30 years now.  Still, if any technology deserves our money and attention, I think here.</p>
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		<title>By: Dutchgirl</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-378012</link>
		<dc:creator>Dutchgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 16:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-378012</guid>
		<description>In the Netherlands the official prise of regular gas is 1.588 euro per liter (about 10 dollars per gallon), prices at the pump can be much higher depending on location. People still drive there, but the public transit there is an efficient and attractive alternative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the Netherlands the official prise of regular gas is 1.588 euro per liter (about 10 dollars per gallon), prices at the pump can be much higher depending on location. People still drive there, but the public transit there is an efficient and attractive alternative.</p>
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		<title>By: D. H. Strong</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-377911</link>
		<dc:creator>D. H. Strong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 13:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-377911</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;

It&#039;s true that oil is running out, and the cost is going to keep rising.

But we don&#039;t have to pay it.

First off, get over that &quot;hybrid&quot; nonsense.  The electricity is still coming from oil.  Get back to basics.

Wind and solar power are already more affordable than oil.  The oil-slick profiteers did us a favor when they started driving up the price on speculation -- they forced us to realize that we couldn&#039;t just run on cheap gas and hot air any more.

An entire hydrogen-cell economy is now almost as affordable as oil.  New ways of harnessing geothermal and hydrodynamic are now at least as affordable as oil.  Get outside the box, and wake up and smell the 21st century.

And there&#039;s no telling what a generation of bright, motivated kids can come up with if they have something to aim at besides pocket toys.

Quit jawing about &quot;the guv&#039;ment oughta do sumtin&#039; &#039;bout the price a&#039; gas,&quot; and start electing statesmen (and women) who will kick the oil executives to the curb and invest in alternatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/" rel="nofollow"></p>
<p>It's true that oil is running out, and the cost is going to keep rising.</p>
<p>But we don't have to pay it.</p>
<p>First off, get over that "hybrid" nonsense.  The electricity is still coming from oil.  Get back to basics.</p>
<p>Wind and solar power are already more affordable than oil.  The oil-slick profiteers did us a favor when they started driving up the price on speculation -- they forced us to realize that we couldn't just run on cheap gas and hot air any more.</p>
<p>An entire hydrogen-cell economy is now almost as affordable as oil.  New ways of harnessing geothermal and hydrodynamic are now at least as affordable as oil.  Get outside the box, and wake up and smell the 21st century.</p>
<p>And there's no telling what a generation of bright, motivated kids can come up with if they have something to aim at besides pocket toys.</p>
<p>Quit jawing about "the guv'ment oughta do sumtin' 'bout the price a' gas," and start electing statesmen (and women) who will kick the oil executives to the curb and invest in alternatives.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-376532</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 15:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-376532</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re already in the price territory in which alternatives begin to look a lot more attractive (as Alex&#039;s post above highlights).  If the price spike continues for any length of time I expect we&#039;ll see a lot of exploding garages (homebrew, storage, etc.).

I don&#039;t know, Steve. If there&#039;s a bubble it&#039;s a pretty long-lived one. The time horizon for price increases quoted above doesn&#039;t start early enough.  IIRC prices tripled between 1998 and 2004, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We're already in the price territory in which alternatives begin to look a lot more attractive (as Alex's post above highlights).  If the price spike continues for any length of time I expect we'll see a lot of exploding garages (homebrew, storage, etc.).</p>
<p>I don't know, Steve. If there's a bubble it's a pretty long-lived one. The time horizon for price increases quoted above doesn't start early enough.  IIRC prices tripled between 1998 and 2004, too.</p>
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		<title>By: steveplunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-376518</link>
		<dc:creator>steveplunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 15:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-376518</guid>
		<description>Does Maxwell have money in Oil futures?  Does Maxwell get his name published for such outrageous predictions?  Will Maxwell pay any real price for being wrong?  I think we can see some bad incentives at play here.

While you are on the subject, Mr. Verdon, I would like to get your take on the hedge funds influence on oil and hedge funds in general.  Do you see them as a good thing for the economy or a bad thing?  Is there a sound defense for an elite group of investors with the power and money to influence markets and acting mostly unregulated to even exist?  Are they due for more regulation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Maxwell have money in Oil futures?  Does Maxwell get his name published for such outrageous predictions?  Will Maxwell pay any real price for being wrong?  I think we can see some bad incentives at play here.</p>
<p>While you are on the subject, Mr. Verdon, I would like to get your take on the hedge funds influence on oil and hedge funds in general.  Do you see them as a good thing for the economy or a bad thing?  Is there a sound defense for an elite group of investors with the power and money to influence markets and acting mostly unregulated to even exist?  Are they due for more regulation?</p>
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		<title>By: brainy435</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-376517</link>
		<dc:creator>brainy435</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 15:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-376517</guid>
		<description>How did an Amazon ad get linked to my comment?

Weird, especially considering I am not a religious person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did an Amazon ad get linked to my comment?</p>
<p>Weird, especially considering I am not a religious person.</p>
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		<title>By: PoliBlog (TM): A Rough Draft of my Thoughts &#187; Are we Running out of Oil?</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-376506</link>
		<dc:creator>PoliBlog (TM): A Rough Draft of my Thoughts &#187; Are we Running out of Oil?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 14:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-376506</guid>
		<description>[...] Steve Verson@OTB notes an article by Charles T. Maxwell that predicts the advent of $12-$15 per gallon gas in the 2010-2015 range. I also heard a story yesterday on All Things Considered about a pending report regarding global oil supply (and the news wasn&#8217;t good). While I cannot find that story online, Kevin Drum posted on the same report from the IEA yesterday. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Steve Verson@OTB notes an article by Charles T. Maxwell that predicts the advent of $12-$15 per gallon gas in the 2010-2015 range. I also heard a story yesterday on All Things Considered about a pending report regarding global oil supply (and the news wasn&#8217;t good). While I cannot find that story online, Kevin Drum posted on the same report from the IEA yesterday. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-376499</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 14:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-376499</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Suppose you have good reason to expect prices to be $300/barrel in June of 2012 (the mid point in Maxwell’s prediction time frame above). If you bought as much as you could now and stored it till 2012 (about 4 years) you’d earn over 222% return on your investment. Even accounting for storage costs you’d make a killing. This kind of incentive would push up the price right now. We aren’t seeing it so most investors don’t believe Maxwell’s prediction.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Wait, so if the price of oil were expected to go up in the future, it would be going up now, which obviously it is, but our current increase in oil price isn&#039;t evidence of this phenomenon?  I&#039;m confused on something here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Suppose you have good reason to expect prices to be $300/barrel in June of 2012 (the mid point in Maxwell&rsquo;s prediction time frame above). If you bought as much as you could now and stored it till 2012 (about 4 years) you&rsquo;d earn over 222% return on your investment. Even accounting for storage costs you&rsquo;d make a killing. This kind of incentive would push up the price right now. We aren&rsquo;t seeing it so most investors don&rsquo;t believe Maxwell&rsquo;s prediction.</p></blockquote>
<p>Wait, so if the price of oil were expected to go up in the future, it would be going up now, which obviously it is, but our current increase in oil price isn't evidence of this phenomenon?  I'm confused on something here.</p>
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		<title>By: Dyre42</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-376042</link>
		<dc:creator>Dyre42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 05:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-376042</guid>
		<description>Even if what Maxwell said is true it could be worse. It could have been the King of Saudi Arabia making the prediction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if what Maxwell said is true it could be worse. It could have been the King of Saudi Arabia making the prediction.</p>
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		<title>By: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-376000</link>
		<dc:creator>Zelsdorf Ragshaft III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 04:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-376000</guid>
		<description>What is likely to happen long before we get ripped off to that extent.  The American people will throw out the Democratic congress who has allowed tree huggers to dictate policy and disallow oil exploriation, extraction and refining.  There is more than enough oil in oil shale and off our coast and and Anwar to supply this nation for quite some time.  I, for one, am tired of these idiots attacking our capitalist system through environmental issues.  Soon, the people will say enough.  Hang them all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is likely to happen long before we get ripped off to that extent.  The American people will throw out the Democratic congress who has allowed tree huggers to dictate policy and disallow oil exploriation, extraction and refining.  There is more than enough oil in oil shale and off our coast and and Anwar to supply this nation for quite some time.  I, for one, am tired of these idiots attacking our capitalist system through environmental issues.  Soon, the people will say enough.  Hang them all.</p>
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		<title>By: versicherungen</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-375982</link>
		<dc:creator>versicherungen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 04:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-375982</guid>
		<description>I hope the Government should careful about it this matter and they should control this market otherwise peoples have to pay more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope the Government should careful about it this matter and they should control this market otherwise peoples have to pay more.</p>
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		<title>By: brainy435</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-375958</link>
		<dc:creator>brainy435</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 03:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-375958</guid>
		<description>&quot;This can lead to bad incentives that actually exacerbate the problem, not make it worse.&quot;

Say what now?

Also, if people were paying an extra $5k for gas a year, the hybrinds are attractive anywhere under 5k per year, not just 5k total. Of course that number only holds for hybrids that save you, what, 66% of the gas a comparable combustion engine would, which is probably not realistic.

In any event, this is what happens when government tries to control markets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"This can lead to bad incentives that actually exacerbate the problem, not make it worse."</p>
<p>Say what now?</p>
<p>Also, if people were paying an extra $5k for gas a year, the hybrinds are attractive anywhere under 5k per year, not just 5k total. Of course that number only holds for hybrids that save you, what, 66% of the gas a comparable combustion engine would, which is probably not realistic.</p>
<p>In any event, this is what happens when government tries to control markets.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/comment-page-1/#comment-375924</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 02:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/gasoline_12_dollarsgallon_inevitable/#comment-375924</guid>
		<description>Steve,

When they start in with that nonsense, it&#039;s usually the first sign that the bubble will break shortly, and this is people trying to extend the ride on the wave a bit longer by letting more people (read that less experienced people with some money to throw way) to help them along.

You may want to look at the&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/05/22/ccoil122.xml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Telegraph&lt;/a&gt;, today. They tell a different story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>When they start in with that nonsense, it's usually the first sign that the bubble will break shortly, and this is people trying to extend the ride on the wave a bit longer by letting more people (read that less experienced people with some money to throw way) to help them along.</p>
<p>You may want to look at the<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/05/22/ccoil122.xml" rel="nofollow"> Telegraph</a>, today. They tell a different story.</p>
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