Comments on: Gay Medic Discharged after ‘60 Minutes’ Appearance

By: Leisureguy

Leisureguy — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:02:17 +0000

Just to support DavidTC: I think that the issue of "comfort" is rarely a priority in military life or military operations. I think if an enlisted man objected to some operation because of the discomfort he might encounter, he would be asking for a world of trouble. If you think about the fighting conditions in Iraq or Afghanistan today, you will not find comfort making an appearance.

By: DavidTC

DavidTC — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:56:33 +0000

It may be uncomfortable for some people to serve with gays, but I figure they will eventually adjust.

This is always been the dumbest argument for me. If soldiers are ordered to work with gay soldiers, they damn well better work with those soldiers. If they are ordered to wrestle naked with gay soldiers, the appropriate response is to ask 'Greco-roman or traditional?'. We're talking about the US military, not a damn slumber party. Soldiers do not get to complain they are 'uncomfortable'. If the US military had wanted soldiers to have an opinion on serving with gay soldiers, it would have issued them an opinion.

By: Grewgills

Grewgills — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:31:38 +0000

Virtually the same excuses were rolled out when the army was integrated (loss of unit cohesion, etc). They turned out to false, as will the dire predictions about allowing openly gay men and women to serve.

By: Leo

Leo — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:10:38 +0000

I've always enjoyed Bill Murray's reply to the question in STRIPES, "No, but we're willing to learn." Um, there's a big difference between being gay and broadcasting it, at least IMHO. Give it another 10 years an no one will care.

By: Leisureguy

Leisureguy — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:24:05 +0000

Perhaps with a larger sample the study wouldn't hold---but perhaps it would. Who knows? I was just trying to figure out why so much homophobia in the US.

I do note that 20 of the 25 NATO nations allow gays in the military. It's pretty common, it seems. Surely the US could do as well.

By: Richard Gardner

Richard Gardner — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:46:16 +0000

... cites a recent Zogby poll

As you've pointed out before, outside polls of military personnel are notoriously unreliable as the pollsters don't have good access to a random sample. And if the poll is conducted by the military many soldiers put down what they think the military wants to hear.

I looked at the methodology in the PDF above.

Zogby International conducted online interviews of 545 U.S. Military Personnel who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan (or in combat support roles directly supporting those operations), from a purchased list of U.S. Military Personnel. ... The panel uses a double
opt-in format through an invitation only method.

I just don't trust any statistics like this. Those that are willing to respond to an out-of-the-blue invitation to participate in a poll about a controversial political-military issue may not a be representative sample (or maybe folks opt-in on both sides of the question at equal rates, but I doubt it).

By: Wayne

Wayne — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:31:59 +0000

Leisureguy
Read the study you link too. It has a small sample group and the author admits there is another theory that could easily explain the experiment result. I suspect the results are a combination of many different causation including some who are repressing feelings. However that is just a guest on my part. I also am weary of putting to much faith in any single College study. They often turn out inaccurate or just plain wrong.

The military has enough to deal with. The rule will most likely change some day but it should be a military decision and not the civilian leadership decision.

By: just me

just me — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:12:37 +0000

I think this is one of those rules that needs to go.

It may be uncomfortable for some people to serve with gays, but I figure they will eventually adjust.

Most concerns about inappropriate behavior can and should be dealt with through the UCMJ.

But if a gay person wants to serve their country I don't think there is an overly compelling reason to tell them they can't.

By: Leisureguy

Leisureguy — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:05:59 +0000

Most major countries have allowed gays to serve in their military (UK and Israel, for example), with no problems regarding unit cohesion and the like. Strange how homophobic the US is. And, of course, homophobic men (unlike non-homophobic men) become aroused at view homoerotic scenes. (Study here.) Perhaps the strong strain of homophobia in the US is because so many homosexual men are fighting their true sexuality.

By: The Art of the Possible » Blog Archive » The Queer State of The Entity Charged With Fighting for Our Freedom

Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:14:24 +0000

[...] shouldn’t have any troops in Iraq, including Sgt. Manzella. But for those who disagree, conservative James Joyner at least has the sense to observe that with recruiting and retention numbers not being sufficient to the war: One highly [...]

By: James Joyner

James Joyner — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:12:06 +0000

A bit like the polling on Obama -- "It's not ME who's prejudiced against gays, it's the other guys in my platoon."

Heh. Yeah, definitely some of that. The bottom line is that, unless the Army has changed radically since my day (which it may have) the culture equates courage and toughness with heterosexual masculinity.

By: Anderson

Anderson — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:09:55 +0000

73 percent of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan being “comfortable with gays and lesbians.” *** only 26 percent in the same survey thought gays should be allowed to serve, compared to a plurality of 37 percent opposed. A bit like the polling on Obama -- "It's not ME who's prejudiced against gays, it's the other guys in my platoon."

By: James

James — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:01:39 +0000

Rules are rules. You know this going in and you are aware of the consequences. The same thing with illegals crossing the border and being deported. They know what the deal is and what the consequences will be. No matter what you think is fair or unfair it is still the rules.

By: Christopher

Christopher — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:41:58 +0000

Too funny! His army buddies don't care? Yea right. Those macho he-men masculine GI's don't care about their fellow soldier being a fag? Give me a break! It's a good policy. Openly gay members of the military should be discharged. But if the liberals have their way (read: Obamessiah elected), the # of gay soldiers will dramatically increase, and hurt our nation's fighting ability. Don't believe it? Watch and see.

By: yetanotherjohn

yetanotherjohn — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:57:30 +0000

The military has lots of regulations. Some make a lot of sense and some don't. Try keeping your navy whites clean. The regulations say when you have to wear them and to keep them clean. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to just do navy blue all year? But those aren't the regulations.

He joined well after the program was in place. Whatever the merits of the program, he was violating the regulation. Do you allow individual service people to decide what regulations they will follow and which ones they will decide don't apply to them?

The policy decisions to allow or not allow something is a great debate to have. Just don't expect sympathy when you violate the current policy.