Comments on: Giuliani Swift Boated by Firefighters

By: James Joyner

James Joyner — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:29:38 +0000

Rudy is indirectly responsible for the deaths of the firemen who died when the second tower collapsed . . . because the radios the firemen had didn't work

But the policemen had working radios. Did Rudy like the cops more than he liked the firefighters? Was he the guy in charge of buying radios?

By: sguillory

sguillory — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:06:33 +0000

The video is making the claim that Rudy is indirectly responsible for the deaths of the firemen who died when the second tower collapsed. The order to evacuate had been given, but because the radios the firemen had didn't work, none of them responded, presumably because they never heard the order.

All the policemen in the second tower did receive the order, and not one policemen died when the second tower toppled.

By: Think Progress » Firefighters: Giuliani Ditched 9/11 Body Recovery 24 Hours After Securing $230 Million In Buried Gold

Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:06:01 +0000

[...] the video has been attacked by the right wing as another form of “Swift Boating.” But as the Carpetbagger noted, “The [...]

By: Grewgills

Grewgills — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:23:42 +0000

Surely, it’s not the mayor’s responsibility to test firefighter equipment.

The argument made is that the no bid contract that purchased the defective equipment 7 years after the report that it was needed was his responsibility.

And it’s certainly reasonable enough to try to get the nation’s largest city working again rather than delaying it to recover dead bodies.

The argument they made here is about timing. The order to leave the pile came about 1 hour after $200 million in gold was removed from the pile.

The decision to keep the command center atop the Towers is more problematic, I think, although there may have been sound logistical reasons for doing so.

He was advised to put the OEM in Brooklyn prior to the attack for among other reasons the building was not as visible a target. That is where it is now.

As far as I know all of these claims are factually correct. You may or may not feel they are fair comment, but does anyone have evidence that they are factually in error?
Rudy is running almost exclusively on his 9/11 reputation, yet the decisions he made prior to and after the attack are questionable at the least.

The video is up here. Rudy urban legend

By: spencer

spencer — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:50:03 +0000

This approach will undoubtedly insure that health outcomes will improve throughout the country. Health care is just like televisions.

Does this mean we do not have to worry about how to finance Medicare?

By: carpeicthus

carpeicthus — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:38:37 +0000

The difference is that the firefighter's criticisms are factually true, not based on slanderous insinuation. Whether you feel as much importance should be placed on it as they do, or whether it was understandable that Giuliani made the decisions, is a different matter. If the Swift Boaters had just made a campaign portraying Kerry's activism in a bad light that would have been one thing, but they spent most of their time with baseless smears and false insinuations.

By: legion

legion — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:08:32 +0000

I can't pull a cite off the top of my head (no coffee yet.... ugh) but I seem to recall a lot of finger-pointing about PD/FD/EMS radio systems not being compatible on 9-11, and that having been a long-standing problem higher-ups, possibly including Giuliani, ignored. Again, this is from my rusty memory, but I believe that, along with other inter-service rivalries, was blamed for poor coordination among rescue workers & getting people in & out of the towers before they fell. I really don't know how much Rudy had to do with it, but it's left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of NYC uniform types ever since.

By: JBJB

JBJB — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:49:53 +0000

Are "firefighters" really against Rudy, or just some unionists thugs with a grudge?

By: davod

davod — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:25:02 +0000

It is my understanding that the hierarchy of one of the firefighters unions is against Giuliani.

As far as the Swift Boat allegations are concerned. Kerry brought them on himself.

By: cian

cian — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:58:14 +0000

Add this to the list of highly, to say the least, unstable advisors surrounding his bid, his totally out of touch take on both Iraq and the wider war on terror, his alignment with the Christian right (a group notoriously difficult to shake off once engaged with) and, worst of all perhaps, extremely dodgy dress sense, appealing to the a republican base shrinking with every passing day wont get him far should he win through to the main event.

By: Tano

Tano — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:08:17 +0000

"But the implication that he is somehow responsible for the deaths on 9/11 is outrageous, just as were the charges that Kerry didn't deserve his medals."

huh?
Did I miss something here?
Where do the firefighters claim that Rudy is responsible for the deaths on 9/11?

Could you explain how this is something other than a gross mischaracterization, James?

Although I do agree with the underlying sense that IF that is what they were charging, then it would be on the same level as the Swiftboaters.

By: jpe

jpe — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:31:46 +0000

Firefighters have been criticizing Rudy for quite a while now.

At any rate, isn't it actually the mayor's responsibility to ensure that police and firefighters have working equipment? Seems like it would be.

By: Triumph

Triumph — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:19:07 +0000

Giuilai will prevail--mostly because of his keen intellect and mastery of the complex problems facing the country.

In an address today in New Hampshire, he made a brilliant analogy to explain the problem with access to health care in the US:

"Look what happens with televisions. At first they are really expensive and they have some flaws, but eventually they come down in price, more people can afford them, and they are of higher quality. That is how markets work."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/politics/primarysource/2007/07/rudy_calls_hims.html

This approach will undoubtedly insure that health outcomes will improve throughout the country. Health care is just like televisions.

By: legion

legion — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:30:54 +0000

Ahhhh, I was under the impression that the 'swift boat' comparison was part of the original article, which didn't seem to actually make any judgement on the legitimacy of the criticisms. I didn't grasp at first that it was your take on the whole affair...

By: Wayne

Wayne — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:50:23 +0000

The NYFD is taking chances with their image also. People may start thinking of them as just another political hack union who want to take down another Republican.

Also some facts may finally be exposed in a piss fight. Anyone remember the fight that broke out between some in the NYFD and NYPD because Giuliani order a pull back in search operations due to health concerns. The NYFD condemn Rudy at the time then later brought lawsuits stating he didn’t do it early enough.

Anytime someone starts thowing mud, they should be prepared to get some on themselve. Hopefully they act civil but I doubt it.