Was all the discrepancy in Obama's favor?

That's not been broken out as yet, in the reports, But there seems a rather strong chance of that given the numbers we were given prior to those absentee ballots being counted, and the final tabs.

Usually true, but Lake County didn't seem to be in a hurry, did they?

I cannot imagine that they were not under very serious pressure to get the counts out.

The two reports I caught didn't get very technical, but the first report I caught suggested that the problem was that the totals didn't add up correctly with the stated votes, on a per machine basis.

Was all the discrepancy in Obama's favor?

On paper, no, but lets face it; when you're in a hurry, processes tend to change, even absent any intent to defraud.

Usually true, but Lake County didn't seem to be in a hurry, did they?

Thanks, and anything you can find out about the nature of the failure would be good too

I guess I shoulda mentioned that, huh? Sorry.
The two reports I caught didn't get very technical, but the first report I caught suggested that the problem was that the totals didn't add up correctly with the stated votes, on a per machine basis.

Nobody has said the verification process was changed for the late ballots.

On paper, no, but lets face it; when you're in a hurry, processes tend to change, even absent any intent to defraud.

Aren't black holes infinite?

Not technically, no.

As to the numbers of failures, I can't find references on line, but I'm heard on the way in this morning a figure of 'around 40'... I'm trying to veryify that now.

Thanks, and anything you can find out about the nature of the failure would be good too.

I'm also seeing reports that around 11,000 last minute absentee ballots showed up on the last day. A little high, I'd say.

They did say they were higher than expected, but so was election day turnout, so I'm not sure its unreasonably high.

I wonder about their verification, and which way those ballots were marked, don't you?

I don't wonder about their verification any more than I wonder about the verification of absentee ballots turned in well in advance. Nobody has said the verification process was changed for the late ballots.

They did not break up a hand recount. They protested Democrats operatives taking the ballots into a back room to count them in private without any Republican representative. I sure you thought would have been fair.

It was the Bush side which went to court first and the Bush side which threatened violence to prevent the processes set forth under law from being completed. Gore being graceful in response to the Bush side's actions is exceptional.

I started the chronology where I did because that's the case that went to SCOTUS. Gore managed to get Democratic local election officials to flout black letter law and Bush went to court, unsuccessfully, to stop him.

Bush v Gore started, though, when Gore challenged the Republican secretary of state's certification, per the law, of the results.

Do those all create paper trails now? Good to know. Some news reports were saying that the Lake County machines didn't though, so maybe they weren't Diebold.

Exactly why I worded my peice as I did. I may typo the hell out of stuff, but generally speaking, I have a very solid reasoning behind my wording. if I'm not mistaken, they're Infinity machines. (Aren't black holes infinite?)
As to the numbers of failures, I can't find references on line, but I'm heard on the way in this morning a figure of 'around 40'... I'm trying to veryify that now.

I'm also seeing reports that around 11,000 last minute absentee ballots showed up on the last day. A little high, I'd say. I wonder about their verification, and which way those ballots were marked, don't you?

But the outcome wasn't enough for Obama to win. If the board were staffed by Clinton supporters, and the final results were exactly the same (just shy of enough for Obama to win the state), the exact same evidence you're relying on would be used to support conspiracy theories against Clinton.

The judgement here is not based on their success or failure, but more on who it is that would benefit. Clinton was solidly ahead in all the polling data. She wouldn't have benefitted significantly by the kind of actions we're talking about. Obama would, and so would the DNC muckties who are desperate to put this primary behind them, and who, as I've alrready noted, have freinds on the elections board in Lake County, the reports say.

While not proven, this is not a major leap, Mike. I'd not put it past them, given what we saw in 2000. You?

Way to cherry-pick the history of the Florida recount! Why not start with (from the site you cited):

"Saturday, Nov. 11—The Bush team, led by former secretary of state James Baker, files suit in federal court to block Gore's request for a hand recount."

or

[from November 13]" A federal judge in Miami rejects Bush's efforts to halt manual recounts. Bush appeals the decision."

or even find a chronology which mentions the riot led by Republican Congressional staff members to break up the hand-counting?

It was the Bush side which went to court first and the Bush side which threatened violence to prevent the processes set forth under law from being completed. Gore being graceful in response to the Bush side's actions is exceptional.

Not at all, paricularly if they were Diebolds, since those create a paper trail.

Do those all create paper trails now? Good to know. Some news reports were saying that the Lake County machines didn't though, so maybe they weren't Diebold.

And, Mike? Do you happen to know what the failure rate for machines in OTHER counties, is, by chance?

Probably the same as they are here, since the same companies are selling the voting machines overseas as they are here.

That so many would have failed in just this one county kinda stretches the laws of probability just a tad.

How many have failed? I haven't even heard official reports that there were failures, let alone actual numbers. I guess some news is even slower to get out than the election results.

Add to that the history of the county and who is running that elections board, and there's more than good reason to question the outcome, here.

But the outcome wasn't enough for Obama to win. If the board were staffed by Clinton supporters, and the final results were exactly the same (just shy of enough for Obama to win the state), the exact same evidence you're relying on would be used to support conspiracy theories against Clinton.

As for voting machines going "flooey", depending on the voting machines being used, I wouldn't be surprised. Diebold machines have been demonstrated to be unreliable many times over, as have those from other manufacturers. Calling it "a near impossibility, unless someone’s been software tampering" is just ridiculous.

Not at all, paricularly if they were Diebolds, since those create a paper trail.

And, Mike? Do you happen to know what the failure rate for machines in OTHER counties, is, by chance?

Better go read about that before going on about it. That so many would have failed in just this one county kinda stretches the laws of probability just a tad. Add to that the history of the county and who is running that elections board, and there's more than good reason to question the outcome, here.

From the comments about Gore being decent and graceful, I take it if Hillary tries to take this to a broker convention, exhaust every legal means including getting Florida and Michigan seated, challenging the Dems process, challenging any voting irregularities that she will be considered decent and graceful?

You may consider it only decent, and what a normal person would do (although that posits that any politician running for President is normal), but I believe it went beyond decent and was a service to the country.

(Only a personal observation, but I don't think that I am alone among Gore's supporters in 00.)

I would take a look back at the coverage at that time. Gore's behavior after the Supreme spoke (and I won't comment on their reasoning) was both decent and graceful. His words and (in)actions allowed Bush to have a normal start to his Presidency and escape having a taint placed over it. (For the most part)

Gore's behavior both before and after the court decisions was what I consider decent. He didn't do anything I would consider especially graceful, certainly he didn't surprise me by any of this actions.

Given that Gore won the popular vote and the closeness of Florida, it could have really caused a crisis.

Only if Gore decided that winning was more important than the rule of law. The popular vote doesn't matter, it's nice to have, but it doesn't matter. The closeness of Florida caused the recounts, which I believe was the right thing to do. There were questions about the legality of some of the process, and the courts fulfilled their duties in ruling on them, and the appeals process worked as it was supposed to, and, having appealed to the highest authority allowed under the Constitution, Gore accepted the outcome of our system.

I would take a look back at the coverage at that time. Gore's behavior after the Supreme spoke (and I won't comment on their reasoning) was both decent and graceful. His words and (in)actions allowed Bush to have a normal start to his Presidency and escape having a taint placed over it. (For the most part)

Given that Gore won the popular vote and the closeness of Florida, it could have really caused a crisis. Gore's gracefulness after it was clear that he couldn't win gave Bush an opportunity (which he didn't take) to try and be a "uniter, not a divider" for the country.

Decent . . . graceful . . . Tomato . . . Tomaato

Um, no. I praise people for being graceful, but I expect people to be decent.