We all await your rationalization how YPM are sweet, innocent buttercups while ACORN are dark, hirsute infidels, ahem, "destroying the fabric of our democracy."

So, we have one arrest... not a conviction, mind.
One.

And how many states is Acorn under investigation in again?

Interesting how you defend ACORN in spite of years of investigations and printed evidence... and yet on the basis of one story attack YPM, and try to base a moral equivalence argument, or perhaps even a moral superiority argument out of that.

Perhaps you'll be good enough, Eric, to explain to us how this double standard thing works in your world, again?

ACORN did not set up the circumstances...

With every 'Mickey Mouse' false registration, they are doing just that. With every false 'Fred Jones' the implications for wrong doing are even greater.

But again, this is not ACORNS fault, this is the fault of those who made the rules.

ACORN is an intentional enabler.

ACORN has gone to great lengths to avoid any kind of quality-control process in its collected registrations.

Apparently not enough if ACORN themselves tells election officials to check their submissions.

No offense Rodney, but Jay Tea should get his facts right. For instance:

First up, setting up the circumstances that could enable voting fraud is bad.

ACORN did not set up the circumstances... our various elected gov'ts did.

Second, even if none of those voter registrations is actually used to vote, it can be used to undermine the validity of any elections.

Indeed, as "just me" and I have already stated. But again, this is not ACORNS fault, this is the fault of those who made the rules.

Non-existent registered voters who don't show up count as a "suppressed turnout," and that is often cited as "proof" of some election shenanigans.

The only thing I have ever seen it cited as proof of is "voter apathy"

Third, ACORN has gone to great lengths to avoid any kind of quality-control process in its collected registrations. They do not perform any kind of verification process

This has already been amply demonstrated to be a falsehood, and I suspect "Jay-tea" knows it. Go back and read my earlier posts. You can go to ACORNS web site and read it youself. If you choose not to beleive them, that is fine. There is independant verification out there. You can start with Diane Rheeme's early show today, which was on this very subject. She had a reporter on who confirmed it.

Jay Tea says if far more eloquently than I ever could. Excerpted.

[...]

First up, setting up the circumstances that could enable voting fraud is bad. At best, it's a form of negligence -- negligence like leaving a loaded gun in a playground. No, you won't kill anyone directly, but you WILL be making it a hell of a lot easier for someone else to kill someone.

Second, even if none of those voter registrations is actually used to vote, it can be used to undermine the validity of any elections. Non-existent registered voters who don't show up count as a "suppressed turnout," and that is often cited as "proof" of some election shenanigans.

Third, ACORN has gone to great lengths to avoid any kind of quality-control process in its collected registrations. They do not perform any kind of verification process on the registrations their employees collect. Instead, they simply turn them all over to public officials and let THEM deal with the inevitable, copious fraudulent forms.

[...]

This issue isn't whether voter fraud exists, it exists on both sides, the issue is that Obumble has been implicitly linked to ACORN in word and in funding.

Rodney: You say that like being

"the nation’s largest grassroots community organization of low- and moderate-income people with over 400,000 member families organized into more than 1,200 neighborhood chapters in 110 cities across the country"

is a bad thing.

Because Florida has pretty much given up on cross checking all the registrations and leaving the them on the books, because they don't have the manpower to sort through all the bogus and ineligible voters....

Agreed, and as such it is because we lack the will to put in the resources to deal with the problem... But I don't think that is why McCain is making these somewhat inflammatory comments.

The advantage of overloading a system with bogus registrations is that it keeps election workers from doing their jobs effectively.

I don't think it is advantageous for anyone, and in light of ACORNS efforts to make it easy to spot the bogus registrations, they are doing the best they can with the system that is currently in place. After all, they could just turn them all in, as required by law, unflagged, as not required by law, and let the election workers "do their job".

Whether that translates into actual votes cast is a different discussion, but the system is broken and apparently nobody really wants to fix it, and the lack of fixing ends up with a whole process that is corrupted.

Or at least we end with a process about which, it is possible to smear as being "corrupt". Again, I have yet to read of a credible report where "voter registration fraud" turned into actual "voter fraud" on a scale possible to swing an election.

I agree with you that the current system is not working properly (defined as a "system people have faith in") but the problem is nobody wants to pay for one. Homeland Security has backed down on the enforcement of standardized driver licenses because so many states balked at the associated costs.

I suspect that we will be here again come the next election, not because we can not come up with a fair and equitable system for dealing with this, but because we are too cheap to put our money where our mouths are.

Because Florida has pretty much given up on cross checking all the registrations and leaving the them on the books, because they don't have the manpower to sort through all the bogus and ineligible voters.

There are apparently a large number of felons registered to vote in the state, but because of the number of registrations they can't sort through all of them to check against the lists. Whether felons should vote is a different debate, but basically the state has said they are giving up and many felons will be left on the lists and that doesn't include the sheer number of bogus registrations.

The advantage of overloading a system with bogus registrations is that it keeps election workers from doing their jobs effectively.

Whether that translates into actual votes cast is a different discussion, but the system is broken and apparently nobody really wants to fix it, and the lack of fixing ends up with a whole process that is corrupted.

Anjin-I am not playing follow the link. List a few examples, and I will address them. I take you think registration fraud is acceptable?

Something should be done about ACORN and their shenanigans, and the fact that ACORN has had this problem for three election cycles running indicates that there is a systemic problem that they aren't willing to fix.

From ACORN's web site (I would put up the link but it will stretch the page) go to their main page, scroll down to "Recent News" and click on "Bogus Voter Fraud Charges"

"Fact: ACORN has implemented the most sophisticated quality-control system in the voter engagement field but in almost every state we are required to turn in ALL completed applications, even the ones we know to be problematic.

Fact: ACORN flags in writing incomplete, problem, or suspicious cards when we turn them in,. Unfortunately, some of these same officials then come back weeks or months later and accuse us of deliberately turning in phony cards. In many cases, we can actually prove that these are the same cards we called to their attention."

There are more "Fact" listings, including "No criminal charges related to voter registration have ever been brought against ACORN or partner organizations."

One may or may not agree with their politics, but that is not the problem here. The problem is the system currently in place, so I agree that

Ending third parties from registering voters makes the most sense at this point. It isn't working. It results in thousands of fraudulent forms that bog down the election boards trying to cross check voters.

to some extent anyway. (I have read the above elsewhere, so I am confident it is accurate)

I do wonder though, why this "FBI investigation of ACORN" was anonymously leaked to the press so shortly before an election(in express violation of DOJ policy)? And why is McCain using this by saying he might lose Florida because of voter fraud, when he already knows that voter fraud, when it does occur, is so infrequent and minor, that it is a complete non factor in results?

The real problem is people's seeming growing lack of trust in the present system, one that McCain is fanning the flames of, and the very real problem of E-voting.

"Nothing, of course, but how would that capture folks who rent? "

Because if you rent you live at a house that is on the land tax rolls.
Here in Oz they send out forms that say "we currently have no record of anyone at this address being registered to vote".

Give me a specific example and I will give you my opinion on it.

This one happens to be about registration fraud-so I have an opinion on the topic specific to this discussion. It is wrong-no matter who is doing it, and when it is pervasive to the point that it currently is, then something should be done to stop it.

I fully support requirements to prove you are who you are, when voting-if that is suppression in your book-then so be it.