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	<title>Comments on: Grade Inflation or Smarter Students?</title>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/grade_inflation_or_smarter_students/comment-page-1/#comment-532908</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 06:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>How about &#039;Unionized Teachers, doing some self-justification?&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about 'Unionized Teachers, doing some self-justification?'</p>
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		<title>By: cminus</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/grade_inflation_or_smarter_students/comment-page-1/#comment-532630</link>
		<dc:creator>cminus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 13:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;I&gt;
the real answer here (IMHO) is that a tremendous bifurcation of talent and capability is occurring, not dissimilar or divorced from the bifurcation in economic outcomes bemoaned by political observers in recent years.
&lt;/I&gt;
I think Drew&#039;s got it.  The distribution of ability of American students is radically different than in other countries, and the difference is that the quality of American students falls off dramatically at the bottom of the curve.  This is particularly pronounced at the high school level -- the top 50% of American high schoolers are competitive with their peers in other first-world countries, but our bottom 50% are, to put it mildly, not -- but it also applies at the college level.  America&#039;s top college students (not necessarily the same thing as students at America&#039;s top colleges, although there is a great deal of overlap, of course) are doing fine.  The rank and file are not.

When combined with another way in which America is an educational outlier -- our educational outcomes are more strongly linked to parental wealth than in any other first-world county -- I find this worrisome, because it means that other countries are probably using their human resources more effectively.  They&#039;re turning their most gifted potential computer programmers into computer programmers, while we&#039;re only using the most gifted potential computer programmers among the body of students whose parents got them into functional schools throughout their pre-college education.  If the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates turns out to be of middle- or upper-class origin, he or she may well be American.  If the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates turns out to be of poor inner-city origin, he or she won&#039;t be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
the real answer here (IMHO) is that a tremendous bifurcation of talent and capability is occurring, not dissimilar or divorced from the bifurcation in economic outcomes bemoaned by political observers in recent years.<br />
</i><br />
I think Drew's got it.  The distribution of ability of American students is radically different than in other countries, and the difference is that the quality of American students falls off dramatically at the bottom of the curve.  This is particularly pronounced at the high school level -- the top 50% of American high schoolers are competitive with their peers in other first-world countries, but our bottom 50% are, to put it mildly, not -- but it also applies at the college level.  America's top college students (not necessarily the same thing as students at America's top colleges, although there is a great deal of overlap, of course) are doing fine.  The rank and file are not.</p>
<p>When combined with another way in which America is an educational outlier -- our educational outcomes are more strongly linked to parental wealth than in any other first-world county -- I find this worrisome, because it means that other countries are probably using their human resources more effectively.  They're turning their most gifted potential computer programmers into computer programmers, while we're only using the most gifted potential computer programmers among the body of students whose parents got them into functional schools throughout their pre-college education.  If the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates turns out to be of middle- or upper-class origin, he or she may well be American.  If the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates turns out to be of poor inner-city origin, he or she won't be.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/grade_inflation_or_smarter_students/comment-page-1/#comment-532519</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=28324#comment-532519</guid>
		<description>Interesting topic.  

As dangerous as it might be, it is difficult not to view this issue through the prism of one&#039;s own experiences.  I was fortunate enough to graduate from some reasonable institutions: a Purdue Engineer in 1981, and subsequently from MIT grad.  Later, Chicago business school.  No &quot;Ivies,&quot; but not exactly the local community college.   

That said, I can tell you unequivocally that from my perspective current admittance standards are tougher today than when I went through school, and the candidate pool is, generally, stronger.  Lucky me, grade inflation or no, timing is everything.  

Further, as an owner of several dozen businesses the last 18 years, and therefore an ongoing evaluator of potential employee talent, I must say that my observation is that the quality of candidates coming out is actually quite high...............at the top, that is.  

Which brings me to my concern and observation:  the real answer here (IMHO) is that a tremendous bifurcation of talent and capability is occurring, not dissimilar or divorced from the bifurcation in economic outcomes bemoaned by political observers in recent years.  

That is, the economic return to brains, education, talent, risk taking, adaptability and hard work are increasing at an ever accelerating rate.  (I know, I know, this is really not a popular view these days.  But didn&#039;t Toffler predict this oh-so-long ago?  And what do your practical experiences tell you?)     

At the top, things have become incredibly competitive, most likely driven by the required increase in international competitiveness that globalization mandates.  Smart and driven people applying to and performing at top institutions are naturally reacting.  Grades, shmades.  These people perform.  The market at work, you see.

At the lower end - ah, yes, the lower end - insulated (or simply incapable of reacting) this is where our perception and experience of the laggard, grade inflated, student comes from.  Not that grade inflation isn&#039;t real.  I bet it is.  Probably for many of the reasons James cited.
     
But if we want to find a policy issue to successfully address - this lower end of the pool - falling ever farther behind, requires inquiry.  The smarties and motivated will do just fine.  Same as always.  The rest.........?

And the implications for social policy??????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting topic.  </p>
<p>As dangerous as it might be, it is difficult not to view this issue through the prism of one's own experiences.  I was fortunate enough to graduate from some reasonable institutions: a Purdue Engineer in 1981, and subsequently from MIT grad.  Later, Chicago business school.  No "Ivies," but not exactly the local community college.   </p>
<p>That said, I can tell you unequivocally that from my perspective current admittance standards are tougher today than when I went through school, and the candidate pool is, generally, stronger.  Lucky me, grade inflation or no, timing is everything.  </p>
<p>Further, as an owner of several dozen businesses the last 18 years, and therefore an ongoing evaluator of potential employee talent, I must say that my observation is that the quality of candidates coming out is actually quite high...............at the top, that is.  </p>
<p>Which brings me to my concern and observation:  the real answer here (IMHO) is that a tremendous bifurcation of talent and capability is occurring, not dissimilar or divorced from the bifurcation in economic outcomes bemoaned by political observers in recent years.  </p>
<p>That is, the economic return to brains, education, talent, risk taking, adaptability and hard work are increasing at an ever accelerating rate.  (I know, I know, this is really not a popular view these days.  But didn't Toffler predict this oh-so-long ago?  And what do your practical experiences tell you?)     </p>
<p>At the top, things have become incredibly competitive, most likely driven by the required increase in international competitiveness that globalization mandates.  Smart and driven people applying to and performing at top institutions are naturally reacting.  Grades, shmades.  These people perform.  The market at work, you see.</p>
<p>At the lower end - ah, yes, the lower end - insulated (or simply incapable of reacting) this is where our perception and experience of the laggard, grade inflated, student comes from.  Not that grade inflation isn't real.  I bet it is.  Probably for many of the reasons James cited.</p>
<p>But if we want to find a policy issue to successfully address - this lower end of the pool - falling ever farther behind, requires inquiry.  The smarties and motivated will do just fine.  Same as always.  The rest.........?</p>
<p>And the implications for social policy??????</p>
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		<title>By: Gippergal</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/grade_inflation_or_smarter_students/comment-page-1/#comment-532469</link>
		<dc:creator>Gippergal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think it&#039;s grade inflation. Look at how American students stack up internationally - it&#039;s telling. Also consider recent studies on the number of students who regularly lie and cheat - a different form of grade inflation. Liberal elitists tend not to understand that the academic bubble will, eventually, burst - and that has economic implications. Overpaid, underqualified people will hold jobs that well-paid, well-qualified people used to. Business will suffer because of it. The leftist illuminati do a disservice on several grounds: flattening educational achievement so that no one is &quot;left out&quot;; taking away incentives for excellence in the business world via bailouts; and overtaxing those who do excel in business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it's grade inflation. Look at how American students stack up internationally - it's telling. Also consider recent studies on the number of students who regularly lie and cheat - a different form of grade inflation. Liberal elitists tend not to understand that the academic bubble will, eventually, burst - and that has economic implications. Overpaid, underqualified people will hold jobs that well-paid, well-qualified people used to. Business will suffer because of it. The leftist illuminati do a disservice on several grounds: flattening educational achievement so that no one is "left out"; taking away incentives for excellence in the business world via bailouts; and overtaxing those who do excel in business.</p>
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		<title>By: cminus</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/grade_inflation_or_smarter_students/comment-page-1/#comment-532467</link>
		<dc:creator>cminus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=28324#comment-532467</guid>
		<description>If Brighouse&#039;s argument has any validity, then we would expect grade inflation to be more pronounced at more prestigious universities.

Interestingly, it is.  From &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theamericanscholar.org/su08/elite-deresiewicz.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an article&lt;/A&gt; that&#039;s actually highly critical of the Ivies:
&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;&lt;I&gt;
Forty years ago, the average GPA at both public and private universities was about 2.6, still close to the traditional B-/C+ curve. Since then, it’s gone up everywhere, but not by anything like the same amount. The average gpa at public universities is now about 3.0, a B; at private universities it’s about 3.3, just short of a B+. And at most Ivy League schools, it’s closer to 3.4.
&lt;/I&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

So, food for thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Brighouse's argument has any validity, then we would expect grade inflation to be more pronounced at more prestigious universities.</p>
<p>Interestingly, it is.  From <a HREF="http://www.theamericanscholar.org/su08/elite-deresiewicz.html" rel="nofollow">an article</a> that's actually highly critical of the Ivies:</p>
<blockquote><p><i><br />
Forty years ago, the average GPA at both public and private universities was about 2.6, still close to the traditional B-/C+ curve. Since then, it&rsquo;s gone up everywhere, but not by anything like the same amount. The average gpa at public universities is now about 3.0, a B; at private universities it&rsquo;s about 3.3, just short of a B+. And at most Ivy League schools, it&rsquo;s closer to 3.4.<br />
</i></p></blockquote>
<p>So, food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/grade_inflation_or_smarter_students/comment-page-1/#comment-532445</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 21:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m not sure about college. At least in my experience, none of the professors had any qualms about flunking someone who dropped the ball in their class (it happened to me on two occasions). 

High School, though, has grade inflation galore, although they call it &quot;social promotion.&quot; Meaning, basically, that they are graduating a bunch of students who lack the supposed standard in terms of basic skills and other skills, but they don&#039;t want to hold them back unless it is absolutely necessary so as to not &quot;hurt the kid&#039;s feelings&quot; or some variation thereof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm not sure about college. At least in my experience, none of the professors had any qualms about flunking someone who dropped the ball in their class (it happened to me on two occasions). </p>
<p>High School, though, has grade inflation galore, although they call it "social promotion." Meaning, basically, that they are graduating a bunch of students who lack the supposed standard in terms of basic skills and other skills, but they don't want to hold them back unless it is absolutely necessary so as to not "hurt the kid's feelings" or some variation thereof.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/grade_inflation_or_smarter_students/comment-page-1/#comment-532414</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My vote is for a little bit of both.

I think in some ways the expectations for students is lower-I think a lot of teachers do not hold kids accountable for poor work, and I also notice that a lot of teachers seem to structure their grading systems so that even a child who does poorly on some work can still get good grades if they complete some of the easier &quot;give me good grades&quot; assignments.

I do think demands for writing have gone way down.  I think other expectations are higher.  There seem to be a lot more big projects for my kids than I had in high school and middle school.

But I do think there are a lot of challenging classes and a lot of really bright kids out there.  I notice that high schools seem to offer a lot more AP type courses and advanced or honors courses that weren&#039;t available when I attended high school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My vote is for a little bit of both.</p>
<p>I think in some ways the expectations for students is lower-I think a lot of teachers do not hold kids accountable for poor work, and I also notice that a lot of teachers seem to structure their grading systems so that even a child who does poorly on some work can still get good grades if they complete some of the easier "give me good grades" assignments.</p>
<p>I do think demands for writing have gone way down.  I think other expectations are higher.  There seem to be a lot more big projects for my kids than I had in high school and middle school.</p>
<p>But I do think there are a lot of challenging classes and a lot of really bright kids out there.  I notice that high schools seem to offer a lot more AP type courses and advanced or honors courses that weren't available when I attended high school.</p>
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