<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Health Care Debate&#8217;s Ecological Fallacy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:10:13 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Health Reform Politics</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1098725</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Reform Politics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1098725</guid>
		<description>[...] it strikes me that Ezra is making the same argument I did, albeit from the other side, in my health care debate&#8217;s ecological fallacy post.   People are ultimately concerned about how any prospective reform will impact them [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it strikes me that Ezra is making the same argument I did, albeit from the other side, in my health care debate&#8217;s ecological fallacy post.   People are ultimately concerned about how any prospective reform will impact them [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1092704</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1092704</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I blame our political class for the difficulty and verbosity of contracts these days&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You might want to think about blaming law schools for making it too friggin&#039; easy to graduate and state bar associations for making it far too easy to pass the bar.

I know more than a few people who were not smart enough to be good waiters that are now practicing (if you want to call it that) law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I blame our political class for the difficulty and verbosity of contracts these days</p></blockquote>
<p>You might want to think about blaming law schools for making it too friggin' easy to graduate and state bar associations for making it far too easy to pass the bar.</p>
<p>I know more than a few people who were not smart enough to be good waiters that are now practicing (if you want to call it that) law.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BernardFinel.com &#187; Joyner on How Not to Make Policy Decision</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1092001</link>
		<dc:creator>BernardFinel.com &#187; Joyner on How Not to Make Policy Decision</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1092001</guid>
		<description>[...] about health care reform, James write: Most of us have the sense that ourselves and our families would be worse off in a system where the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] about health care reform, James write: Most of us have the sense that ourselves and our families would be worse off in a system where the [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1091389</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1091389</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t much care for the fine print or the 60+ pages my health insurance plan contract runs, but I understand it and don&#039;t see a good alternative.  Fine print comes on all my other insurance coverages, my various financial instruments, and even consent to view some web pages.  Personally, I blame our political class for the difficulty and verbosity of contracts these days, but I digress.  I&#039;m sure the use of fine print is a nod to Al Gore to save trees and reduce carbon emissions since printing and mailing those rather sizable documents out if everything was typed in a reasonable font would consume a good deal more cellulose and gasoline.  As I mentioned somewhere else though, once the government takes over health care the option to sue will be off the table.  It&#039;s almost as if the lawyers have missed this as they cheer them on, or maybe I&#039;ve missed something else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't much care for the fine print or the 60+ pages my health insurance plan contract runs, but I understand it and don't see a good alternative.  Fine print comes on all my other insurance coverages, my various financial instruments, and even consent to view some web pages.  Personally, I blame our political class for the difficulty and verbosity of contracts these days, but I digress.  I'm sure the use of fine print is a nod to Al Gore to save trees and reduce carbon emissions since printing and mailing those rather sizable documents out if everything was typed in a reasonable font would consume a good deal more cellulose and gasoline.  As I mentioned somewhere else though, once the government takes over health care the option to sue will be off the table.  It's almost as if the lawyers have missed this as they cheer them on, or maybe I've missed something else.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1091365</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1091365</guid>
		<description>Most of the health care professionals that I have discussed the subject with feel that the British system is a poor to very poor direction for us to go in and that the French system has considerable strengths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the health care professionals that I have discussed the subject with feel that the British system is a poor to very poor direction for us to go in and that the French system has considerable strengths.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Our Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1091312</link>
		<dc:creator>Our Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1091312</guid>
		<description>This, &lt;strong&gt;charles austin&lt;/strong&gt; ( July 7, 2009 &#124; 06:51 pm), is going to come as a great surprise to you. Most folks, whatever form of government they are living under, expect the duly constituted authorities to protect them from scam artists who rely on “fine print” as a means to defraud them. I mean mon, we are after all a “law and order” society!

These folks know well enough that the suing game is for high rollers, where the defrauding of one hundred thousand bucks or more can be demonstrated, and class actions suits can be instituted. Lisa Girion of the LA Times has documented the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/impressive_coverage_at_the_la.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;finagling of the Insurance Companies&lt;/a&gt; in California. Guess what, they get sued, the plaintiffs win, the Insurance Companies get fined, nobody goes to jail, and the fines are paid by increasing the rates on the subscribers. Economist refer to this sequence of events as the magic of the market place… 

As a physician who has toiled in many different facets of health care I remain astounded at the inability of the Center Right, so enamored with health care as a commodity, so enthralled with market place theory, are unable to grasp the simplest concept of 8th grade biology. The saprophytic relationship, were several parties gain by their mutual interaction, and the parasitic relationship, where one party to survive, sucks the life essence out of another body.

And so tell me, when you say this: &lt;blockquote&gt;No need to worry about the government plan &quot;competing&quot; with private insurance because there just won&#039;t be any. &lt;/blockquote&gt;Are you celebrating the destruction of health insurance companies because they are parasitic, or are you morning their passing because they provide a valuable service? 

I will morn their passing as much as you. Those guys who wrote the “fine print” for health insurance companies will have no trouble finding work. The banks perhaps?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This, <strong>charles austin</strong> ( July 7, 2009 | 06:51 pm), is going to come as a great surprise to you. Most folks, whatever form of government they are living under, expect the duly constituted authorities to protect them from scam artists who rely on “fine print” as a means to defraud them. I mean mon, we are after all a “law and order” society!</p>
<p>These folks know well enough that the suing game is for high rollers, where the defrauding of one hundred thousand bucks or more can be demonstrated, and class actions suits can be instituted. Lisa Girion of the LA Times has documented the <a href="http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/impressive_coverage_at_the_la.php" rel="nofollow">finagling of the Insurance Companies</a> in California. Guess what, they get sued, the plaintiffs win, the Insurance Companies get fined, nobody goes to jail, and the fines are paid by increasing the rates on the subscribers. Economist refer to this sequence of events as the magic of the market place… </p>
<p>As a physician who has toiled in many different facets of health care I remain astounded at the inability of the Center Right, so enamored with health care as a commodity, so enthralled with market place theory, are unable to grasp the simplest concept of 8th grade biology. The saprophytic relationship, were several parties gain by their mutual interaction, and the parasitic relationship, where one party to survive, sucks the life essence out of another body.</p>
<p>And so tell me, when you say this:<br />
<blockquote>No need to worry about the government plan "competing" with private insurance because there just won't be any. </p></blockquote>
<p>Are you celebrating the destruction of health insurance companies because they are parasitic, or are you morning their passing because they provide a valuable service? </p>
<p>I will morn their passing as much as you. Those guys who wrote the “fine print” for health insurance companies will have no trouble finding work. The banks perhaps?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DL</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1091200</link>
		<dc:creator>DL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1091200</guid>
		<description>The Dutch medical system? Surely you jest? Isn&#039;t this where many doctors have admitted to involutarily euthanizing thousands of older patients; deciding for themselves (and the state?) who lives and who dies; who has value and who doesn&#039;t? 

For this American lives saved that nation from Germany&#039;s mad doctors and their insane treatment of humans under the guise of health education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Dutch medical system? Surely you jest? Isn't this where many doctors have admitted to involutarily euthanizing thousands of older patients; deciding for themselves (and the state?) who lives and who dies; who has value and who doesn't? </p>
<p>For this American lives saved that nation from Germany's mad doctors and their insane treatment of humans under the guise of health education.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1091072</link>
		<dc:creator>Zelsdorf Ragshaft III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1091072</guid>
		<description>One thing is certain about government involvement in healthcare.  Once they get it, it is impossible to get them out.  Look at the wonders they have done for our educational system.  Remedial english and math at college level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing is certain about government involvement in healthcare.  Once they get it, it is impossible to get them out.  Look at the wonders they have done for our educational system.  Remedial english and math at college level.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: dutchmarbel</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1091049</link>
		<dc:creator>dutchmarbel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1091049</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; Or to put it another way, would Obama have to seek healthcare outside of the system for his family.&lt;/i&gt;

Our Royals have the same doctors and are treated in the same hospitals as the rest of the population. Though I wouldn&#039;t be suprised if they have faster acces to healthcare than Joe average, admitting that would be a scandal. And &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_pooling_and_monopsony/#comment-1082386&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;as I described earlier&lt;/a&gt;: if necessary you can be treated very fast. Waiting list mediation (including contacting hospitals in other countries if necessary) is also one of the competitive services of health insurers.

The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.minvws.nl/en/themes/health-insurance-system/default.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dutch system&lt;/a&gt; has a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nza.nl/27502/27507/27518&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;governmental body&lt;/a&gt; that supervises both healthcare providers and insurer and sets &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nza.nl/27502/27613/27615&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;maximum rates&lt;/a&gt;. Everybody must be accepted for the basic package by the health insurer. But they can exclude people from the additional insurance packages if they are deemed to fall into a risc group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Or to put it another way, would Obama have to seek healthcare outside of the system for his family.</i></p>
<p>Our Royals have the same doctors and are treated in the same hospitals as the rest of the population. Though I wouldn't be suprised if they have faster acces to healthcare than Joe average, admitting that would be a scandal. And <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_pooling_and_monopsony/#comment-1082386" rel="nofollow">as I described earlier</a>: if necessary you can be treated very fast. Waiting list mediation (including contacting hospitals in other countries if necessary) is also one of the competitive services of health insurers.</p>
<p>The <a href="http://www.minvws.nl/en/themes/health-insurance-system/default.asp" rel="nofollow">Dutch system</a> has a <a href="http://www.nza.nl/27502/27507/27518" rel="nofollow">governmental body</a> that supervises both healthcare providers and insurer and sets <a href="http://www.nza.nl/27502/27613/27615" rel="nofollow">maximum rates</a>. Everybody must be accepted for the basic package by the health insurer. But they can exclude people from the additional insurance packages if they are deemed to fall into a risc group.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Hynd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1090998</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hynd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1090998</guid>
		<description>And, in 1992, I&#039;d point out that the UK had a conmservative government which had stated it wished to starve the NHS/Private partnerships that had always existed in order to encourage  private health providers to expand on their own. It failed, the NHS still provides over 75% of the beds private insurers pay to have their patients in.

Regards, Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, in 1992, I'd point out that the UK had a conmservative government which had stated it wished to starve the NHS/Private partnerships that had always existed in order to encourage  private health providers to expand on their own. It failed, the NHS still provides over 75% of the beds private insurers pay to have their patients in.</p>
<p>Regards, Steve</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Hynd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1090986</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hynd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1090986</guid>
		<description>&quot;Here&#039;s an interesting article from 1992&quot;

Nope, broken link.

Regards, Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Here's an interesting article from 1992"</p>
<p>Nope, broken link.</p>
<p>Regards, Steve</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1090906</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1090906</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My daughter recently filled out a questionnaire from her health insurance company, to which she had contributed for more than 10 years. After the questionnaire was submitted her insurance policy was canceled. Insurance companies call this practice rescission. And because money is more important than the validity of a contract, they have testified in Congress that they will not give up this practice.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

With all due respect, and I mean no disrespect towards your daughter for the difficult poistion she may find herself in now, but if the insurance company really violated their contract, sue them and you will probably win.  I&#039;m guessing the insurance company didn&#039;t violate their contract, only your sense of what she was entitled by disregarding the fine print.  I&#039;m sure one of the reforms coming will eliminate rescission.  At which point the insurance companies may just start folding up shop and we get a single payer plan by default.  No need to worry about the government plan &quot;competing&quot; with private insurance because there just won&#039;t be any.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My daughter recently filled out a questionnaire from her health insurance company, to which she had contributed for more than 10 years. After the questionnaire was submitted her insurance policy was canceled. Insurance companies call this practice rescission. And because money is more important than the validity of a contract, they have testified in Congress that they will not give up this practice.</p></blockquote>
<p>With all due respect, and I mean no disrespect towards your daughter for the difficult poistion she may find herself in now, but if the insurance company really violated their contract, sue them and you will probably win.  I'm guessing the insurance company didn't violate their contract, only your sense of what she was entitled by disregarding the fine print.  I'm sure one of the reforms coming will eliminate rescission.  At which point the insurance companies may just start folding up shop and we get a single payer plan by default.  No need to worry about the government plan "competing" with private insurance because there just won't be any.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Our Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1090892</link>
		<dc:creator>Our Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1090892</guid>
		<description>A while back I asked you, James, how you define “socialized medicine”. We have to understand your antipathy to government sponsored health care to be able to hold valid discussions. And, we have to know what approaches you recommend to help overcome our current problems. 

Our handy dandy &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt; may help you out. It has an extensive article on “Socialized Medicine”, which starts out this way: &lt;blockquote&gt;Socialized medicine is a term used primarily in the United States to refer to certain kinds of publicly-funded health care.  The term is used most frequently, and often &lt;em&gt;pejoratively&lt;/em&gt;, in the U.S. political debate concerning health care.”(my Italics, OP)&lt;/blockquote&gt; The Wiki article goes on to further explore the term “Socialized Medicine” in the introductory paragraph by drawing this distinction: &lt;blockquote&gt;The original meaning was confined to systems in which the government operates health care facilities and employs health care professionals. This narrower usage would apply to the British National Health Service hospital trusts and health systems that operate in other countries as diverse as Finland, Spain, Israel, and Cuba. The United States&#039; Veterans Health Administration, and the medical departments of the US Army, Navy, and Air Force would also fall under this narrow definition. When used in this way, the narrow definition permits a clear distinction from single payer health insurance systems, in which the government finances health care but is not involved in care delivery. &lt;/blockquote&gt;Of course, if you want to raise the flag, blow the trumpet, and seek solace in wise words, you can always fall back on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.conservapedia.com/Socialized_Medicine&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Conservapedia&lt;/a&gt;, which had this to say: &lt;blockquote&gt;Socialized Medicine is &lt;em&gt;health care&lt;/em&gt; as supplied by a &lt;em&gt;monopolistic&lt;/em&gt; or heavily-subsidized and regulated &lt;em&gt;universal health care&lt;/em&gt; State system. &lt;/blockquote&gt;The rest of the introduction deals with wise words from President Ronald Regan. For those whose fun bone has not been jaded out of existence by constant harping on socialism, it is well worth a read. The italicized words in the definition of “Socialized Medicine” are links to other Coservapedia articles. I must say I enjoyed the definition of health care, to wit: &lt;blockquote&gt;Health care is the prevention, treatment, and management of illness and the preservation of mental and physical well being. It usually involves preventive medicine as well as drugs and surgery.

In the United States of America, people pay for health care using insurance. In other countries throughout the world, the government raises taxes in order to provide &quot;socialized medicine&quot;. This has the effect of generally less efficient health care, as well as providing a disincentive to work.&lt;/blockquote&gt;And under a heading titled Politics of health care, it has single entry, a quotation by Robert Moffitt, to wit:&lt;blockquote&gt;
Liberal candidates generally embrace expanding government programs. Expanding government control over the financing and delivery of medical services will guarantee even bigger bureaucracy, higher taxes, and increasingly detailed regulations governing the delivery of care. Conservative candidates generally emphasize the need to re-energize the market and make individuals and families the key decision-makers in the system.” &lt;/blockquote&gt;Perhaps we can get some insight into your concerns about Socialized Medicine in your closing paragraph, to wit: &lt;blockquote&gt;But here’s the thing: most of us aren’t viewing this debate in the aggregate but rather as individuals. Most of us have the sense that ourselves and our families would be worse off in a system where the government was even more influential and &lt;em&gt;even more people were &lt;strong&gt;free riding.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; Statistics about national level costs and outcomes don’t address that concern. (my italics and bold, OP) &lt;/blockquote&gt;Free Riding no less, welcome to Uncle Reagan’s world, where Welfare Queens drive Cadillacs, and society has no debt to those workers and their children who cannot afford our inflated health insurance rate. 

For those who are interested, that dreadful rag The New York Times had an interesting and well written article which covered in part the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/#comments&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dutch Health Care system&lt;/a&gt;. It is amusing and instructive, and well worth a read for those with open minds on health care.

Any chance I will ask James exactly what he means when he next uses the term “Socialized Medicine”?

And will I ever reach the ability to make my points in one sentence jabs, the way Dave Schuler (July 7, 2009 &#124; 01:08 pm) does? Sigh, only the Shadow knows...

&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Full Disclosure&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;: My daughter recently filled out a questionnaire from her health insurance company, to which she had contributed for more than 10 years. After the questionnaire was submitted her insurance policy was canceled. Insurance companies call this practice &lt;a&gt;rescission&lt;/a&gt;. And because money is more important than the validity of a contract, they have testified in Congress that they will not give up this practice.

R. Paul Miller, MD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A while back I asked you, James, how you define “socialized medicine”. We have to understand your antipathy to government sponsored health care to be able to hold valid discussions. And, we have to know what approaches you recommend to help overcome our current problems. </p>
<p>Our handy dandy <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a> may help you out. It has an extensive article on “Socialized Medicine”, which starts out this way:<br />
<blockquote>Socialized medicine is a term used primarily in the United States to refer to certain kinds of publicly-funded health care.  The term is used most frequently, and often <em>pejoratively</em>, in the U.S. political debate concerning health care.”(my Italics, OP)</p></blockquote>
<p> The Wiki article goes on to further explore the term “Socialized Medicine” in the introductory paragraph by drawing this distinction:<br />
<blockquote>The original meaning was confined to systems in which the government operates health care facilities and employs health care professionals. This narrower usage would apply to the British National Health Service hospital trusts and health systems that operate in other countries as diverse as Finland, Spain, Israel, and Cuba. The United States' Veterans Health Administration, and the medical departments of the US Army, Navy, and Air Force would also fall under this narrow definition. When used in this way, the narrow definition permits a clear distinction from single payer health insurance systems, in which the government finances health care but is not involved in care delivery. </p></blockquote>
<p>Of course, if you want to raise the flag, blow the trumpet, and seek solace in wise words, you can always fall back on <a href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Socialized_Medicine" rel="nofollow">Conservapedia</a>, which had this to say:<br />
<blockquote>Socialized Medicine is <em>health care</em> as supplied by a <em>monopolistic</em> or heavily-subsidized and regulated <em>universal health care</em> State system. </p></blockquote>
<p>The rest of the introduction deals with wise words from President Ronald Regan. For those whose fun bone has not been jaded out of existence by constant harping on socialism, it is well worth a read. The italicized words in the definition of “Socialized Medicine” are links to other Coservapedia articles. I must say I enjoyed the definition of health care, to wit:<br />
<blockquote>Health care is the prevention, treatment, and management of illness and the preservation of mental and physical well being. It usually involves preventive medicine as well as drugs and surgery.</p>
<p>In the United States of America, people pay for health care using insurance. In other countries throughout the world, the government raises taxes in order to provide "socialized medicine". This has the effect of generally less efficient health care, as well as providing a disincentive to work.</p></blockquote>
<p>And under a heading titled Politics of health care, it has single entry, a quotation by Robert Moffitt, to wit:<br />
<blockquote>
Liberal candidates generally embrace expanding government programs. Expanding government control over the financing and delivery of medical services will guarantee even bigger bureaucracy, higher taxes, and increasingly detailed regulations governing the delivery of care. Conservative candidates generally emphasize the need to re-energize the market and make individuals and families the key decision-makers in the system.” </p></blockquote>
<p>Perhaps we can get some insight into your concerns about Socialized Medicine in your closing paragraph, to wit:<br />
<blockquote>But here&rsquo;s the thing: most of us aren&rsquo;t viewing this debate in the aggregate but rather as individuals. Most of us have the sense that ourselves and our families would be worse off in a system where the government was even more influential and <em>even more people were <strong>free riding.</strong></em> Statistics about national level costs and outcomes don&rsquo;t address that concern. (my italics and bold, OP) </p></blockquote>
<p>Free Riding no less, welcome to Uncle Reagan&rsquo;s world, where Welfare Queens drive Cadillacs, and society has no debt to those workers and their children who cannot afford our inflated health insurance rate. </p>
<p>For those who are interested, that dreadful rag The New York Times had an interesting and well written article which covered in part the <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/#comments" rel="nofollow">Dutch Health Care system</a>. It is amusing and instructive, and well worth a read for those with open minds on health care.</p>
<p>Any chance I will ask James exactly what he means when he next uses the term “Socialized Medicine”?</p>
<p>And will I ever reach the ability to make my points in one sentence jabs, the way Dave Schuler (July 7, 2009 | 01:08 pm) does? Sigh, only the Shadow knows...</p>
<p><em><strong>Full Disclosure</strong></em>: My daughter recently filled out a questionnaire from her health insurance company, to which she had contributed for more than 10 years. After the questionnaire was submitted her insurance policy was canceled. Insurance companies call this practice <a>rescission</a>. And because money is more important than the validity of a contract, they have testified in Congress that they will not give up this practice.</p>
<p>R. Paul Miller, MD</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: An Interested Party</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1090889</link>
		<dc:creator>An Interested Party</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1090889</guid>
		<description>re: charles austin July 7, 2009 15:39 

And how is that all that different from what we currently have?  Many people who can&#039;t afford health insurance use the emergency room as their &quot;doctor&quot; and those costs are passed on to everyone else...also, within the insurance system, isn&#039;t it already the case that those who use less healthcare partially pay for those who use more...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: charles austin July 7, 2009 15:39 </p>
<p>And how is that all that different from what we currently have?  Many people who can't afford health insurance use the emergency room as their "doctor" and those costs are passed on to everyone else...also, within the insurance system, isn't it already the case that those who use less healthcare partially pay for those who use more...</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Triumph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_debates_ecological_fallacy/comment-page-1/#comment-1090810</link>
		<dc:creator>Triumph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=39072#comment-1090810</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Canadian-style socialized medicine &lt;/blockquote&gt;

FYI:  The Canadian system is not &quot;socialized medicine.&quot;   The government just acts simply as an insurer.  The bulk of medical care is done by private doctors who bill the province.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Canadian-style socialized medicine </p></blockquote>
<p>FYI:  The Canadian system is not "socialized medicine."   The government just acts simply as an insurer.  The bulk of medical care is done by private doctors who bill the province.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
