Comments on: Imperial Hubris

By: gungho

gungho — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

i am somewhere near the action and has watched whats going on.
As "annonymous" says the policies are all wrong.
If these policies continue things will be bad for US of A.
There is no use nit-picking. It is not the American who is hated but the image conjured up by its policies.
Anyone worth his salt will know that the so called "war on terror" will never be won. Everytime a terrorist dies others would be born - whether volentarily or otherwise.
If America is wise it will examine its policies and change tack.
Like what Barak said to Powell "minimise the humiliation" and get out when it is possible.
Let us not kill "innocent civilians" to save our "Innocent civilians." Otherwise I hate to immagine what will happen.
I hope and pray the prediction of the author for a worse attack on the mainland does not happen. If it happens the victims' plight will be attributed to the policies of the Administration , whichever party they belong, that has been in place for decades.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

I agree with much of what anonymous writes and his critics donât understand that the Islamic fundamentalist mentality is not justified according to our beliefs and is so alien from our thinking will never be justifiable. Western Mainstream Culture is so far on the left from their views it will never be seen as liberating to them. It is the same for any religious zealot. We can even look at David Koresh and the Waco, TX standoff; his religious extremist views were the opposite of our western culture. The freedoms we have are the enemy to their fundamentalist beliefs. It is a clash of cultures. When Anonymous speaks of the Declaration of Independence for Osama Bin Ladin it will never sound like our Declaration of Independence, how can it? But the Muslim people he targets are the poor and oppressed population. What do they know of western freedoms? Have they ever had those? Many Islamists see Israel as an enemy to their beliefs, not just for being Jews but also for being Western and supported by the US. One must realize that they are one of the only Democratic societies in that region and that the surrounding population was trying to stamp them out since their independence in the late 1940âs. Mr. Bin Ladin and the Islamists want to know nothing of our culture or accept it. To them we are the infidel. They see westerners as encroaching on their society and oppressing their people when we are really trying to liberate them according to our democratic values. Many of the poor Muslim people of the region see Bin Ladin as a freedom fighter to them. After all the Islamists are seen as providing schools and religious education for the poor while their leaders are corrupt and uncaring. Yet these terrorists kill their innocent people and life is of little value to their views if itâs supporting the infidel. They justify everything in the name of the Koran and unwavering religious faith. Also with our dependence on the oil we need to support the Saudis and the corrupt regimes which are seen by the Islamists as oppressors of the people, which they are. Look at Saddam Hussain or any number of the Sheik states they are not exactly the role model for the average Muslim. These regimes lie to the people constantly while the Islamists never seem to lie and always keep their promises to the people. This message is very powerful indeed. We must look at this as a total war if we seek to win it. 9-11 was a wake up call to fortify our borders and conduct background checks of every one in this country. Our very freedoms here make us a weak easy target for more and more terror. If we do not do a total war and we keep playing this game by Geneva Convention rules we can never win it.

By: Art

Art — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

OBL and others are not waging a war against American values and freedom. They are waging a war to free their territory for an infidel invader who very presence defiles their religion. This is the source of their political and social power in the Middle East. They want us out.

By: James Joyner

James Joyner — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

Art,

It's certainly true that US presence in Saudi Arabia is one of the major grievances. It's not the only one or the most significant.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

You say understanding isn't valuable in the cause of self-defence.

UNDERSTANDING IS THE KEY!!!

Without understanding, the cycle of violence will never end.

Understanding of both sides for the other leads to compassion. Compassion leads to seeing the humanity of the other, no matter how much resentment one has for the other.

Seeing the humanity of the other leads to dissolution of murderous rage. The dissolution of murderous rage opens up the possibility for dialogue. Dialogue open the possibility for peace.

CHOOSE!

Are you more interested in the sadism of war?

Or the hard path to peace?

Unfortunately, the American government (with the people's support) is screwing up the chances big time.

By: James Joyner

James Joyner — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

Compassion for the barbarians who ram airliners into buildings and behead innocents is not very useful. Killing them is.

By: Airborne

Airborne — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

As most things on opposing sides of an argument, their is truth on both sides. The question is which side are you on?
Anonymous has omitted the fact that the muslims to which he refers have not committed their resources and energy to obtaining a Palestinian State. They have committed to exterminating the Jewish State and any Country that supports Israel's right to exist.
This goal will fail for the same reasons that Hitler's goals failed. If Adolf had been satisfied with taking Germany out of post WWI depression and re-establishing a thriving world state instead of destroying every Jew in the world and subjugating all weaker nations, anonymous would have an argument.
But we know that bin Laden and radical Islam's goals are to eliminate Israel in much the same way as Hitler wanted to eradicate all Jews and to subjugate everyone to radical Islam.
Yea, bin Laden is a freedom fighter and a founding father and a hero-- if you really believe that Adolf Hitler was also.
I have a bridge for sale too!
The indescriminate suicidal bombing of innocent woman and children in attempt to terrorize Israel into submission is to me the same as marching those innocent Jews into the bath house to be gassed to death.
I am neither Moslem nor Jew but I will defend the right of any people to live in harmony with the other. Unfortunately, radical Islam has decided this point is non-negotiable in the name of Allah!

The justification for this non-negotiable policy of bin Laden stems from the same logic which defined Hitler's reasoning, namely, the end justifies the means.
We Americans must remember to always be ready, willing and relentlessly able to send tyrants like bin Laden to sit at the right hand of Hitler, in HELL!
If he is the only hero Islam has then Islam needs a reformation to bring it out of the 14th Century.

By: bradandhisdog@msn.com

bradandhisdog@msn.com — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

Yes it seems they opened their compassion to us when they rammed those planes into office buildings and beheaded civlians.

Its total war folks no room for diplomacy now. Let us settle this in a fashion the islamic fundamentalists understand. If the American public does'nt wake up and face total war with evil then we will be done in.

By: blobby

blobby — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

"Imperial Hubris" and other tell-alls that have appeared this year
show failings in the anti-terrorism policies of recent administrations.
However, the Bush Whitehouse has soured the situation far worse than
Clinton and his crew. Bush had a personal agenda to deal with Saddam Hussein from the moment he
took the oath of office. It was a vigilante crusade having nothing to do with fighting
terror or freeing innocent Iraqis from an oppressive regime.
What's more disturbing is that President Bush seems to stubbornly believe al Qaeda is motivated
by pure evil and a hatred of the US's freedom and liberty. He thinks he's a Christian crusader,
God is on his side and bin Laden is a demon of Satan. It's Bush's mindless inerrantisms
which help fuel the hatred of an increasing number of Muslims and polarizes much of American society.
"Anonymous" makes the point that as long as the true reasons for Islamic terrorism aren't understood
and addressed, the US will continue to play into OBL's hands. Until that day arrives our country will be
caught in a terroristic quagmire which defies resolution.

By: independent

independent — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

I'm pretty politically independent in general and i happen to live on the extremely liberal island of Manhattan, which i love. I was living in midtown on September 11th, 2001 and now work just a couple of blocks from the terrible, sad hole in the ground that the terrorists left here, not to mention the innocent people just like you and me who died there and their friends and family scattered pitifully all over the globe. I can't forget about what happened there because i pass it on my way to work. It is representative (along with the more recent barbaric killings posted on the internet and future vows of violence and death) of the ability, the devotion, and the success of these extremists to rid the world of the united states of america and americans. You cannot negotiate with this faction of humanity. You cannot wait it out and hope it will disappear. We have tried this already, and to no avail. This group doesn't lack in scope, tact, or resources, and don't be fooled into thinking that they care whether our president is named George W. Bush or John Kerry. They were plotting to attack our citizens and our resources long before these two names were linked to Candidacy. I think it is sad that our country is so focused on attacking itself internally with its petty partisan media and civilians. i am not pro-war under normal circumstances, but folks, these are not normal circumstances we're experiencing. Part of protecting our homeland is aggressively attempting to bring new thought to the middle east and freedom to its people. Even if this arrives as a fringe benefit of our war effort, at least generations to come can be educated and open to the possibility of democracy and non-secular rule, and better yet (i believe) the option of not associating oneself with any one religion. Sometimes it does more harm to do so than it does good.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

Blobby,
So Bin Ladin is not a demon of satan? I dont know but I would like to think God is on our side and that Bin Ladin has some help from the pointy tail guy. We didnt crash planes into office buildings or behead and kill innocent civilians. I do agree with you we are not fighting this war the right way. We must address the reasons for terrorism but make it clear that we need a full scale war to defeat them.

Then maybe make some inroads into their societies to foster mutual understanding without getting our heads chopped off in the process. Meanwhile those that we deal with on the more rational side such as the sheiks are corrupt and have their own agendas so the poor in many Muslim societies are not represented by their leaders that deal with us. Those that are radical fundimentalists dont want to deal with westerners and wont even meet face to face with them since they are not "Muslims" how do you deal with them?

By: Brad

Brad — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

Yes Independant! You hit the problem right on the nose mucho kudos to your comment! I just wish that people in Manhattan would think the same way and unite instead of going to see Moore's new movie which just serves to promote devisiveness. We need to have a united front here but ...ah our freedoms promote such diversive thought! Lets see that under the Islamic Fundamentalist Law! If that happened under the Taliban I would sick the Department of Virtue and Vice on you to tear out that thing in the mouth that promotes change and thought! After all ignorant sheep are more maliable to the ideas of the religous state.

Lets start by doing offensive operations in Iraq again rather then wait for the enemy to attack us. Today was a real fiasco there letting the insurgents pick the time and place to kill people. I guess it might be evident to the Pentagon that while the collition forces sit back and wait (aka defensive operations) the Iraqi's are hopefully seeing the error of their ways by supporting the terrorists and will turn on them. But I make a bet that the insurgents and Al Jezzeria TV will make it look like today was the US fault of no security. Its dammed if you do dammed if you dont in that part of the world. Lets turn the real American muscle loose to fight a real war, damm the torpedos (aka partisan politics, UN views, EU views and local middle eastern views)! Lets do targeted assisnation of Terrorists with sniper teams on roof tops. The Israelis seem to have some sucess with this latley and the wall. I havent heard of too much bombings there.

By: Chris

Chris — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

I think the analysis put forth by Anonymous in Through Our Enemiesâ Eyes is hard to accept for so many because we are interpreting events and seeing people like Bin Laden with our own biases and filters. Perhaps, Anonymous is trying to get you or I to see things through the eyes of others, most importantly the eyes of our foes. Once we start to see things differently, maybe we can get a plan to deal with terror and the world wide islamic insurgency. I think this is Anonymous' point, at least in part, to reshape how we see this struggle and then deal with it. I look forward to Imperial Hubris.

By: longrifle

longrifle — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

I tend to agree totally with the author of TOEE. What people in the U.S. need to undersand is that the blind rage with which they fight is the same thing that they are fighting against. There is no difference between "you" and "them", you just think you are the "good guys" much the same way as they do. Also, Americans need to drop the morality pleas and look at the situation through a realist point of view. Americans cause their own problems. They finally lived out the consequences of their actions for once and were enraged by it. Open your eyes to the realities that you create and stop with the self pity. This is the only path to understanding your problem with "terrorism". You cannot defeat it militarily as there is no state in the history of the world that has been able to defeat an insurgency in this manner. Your only course of action is to try and understand how to curb the hatred that you generate and start your "war on terrorism" by looking in the mirror. FREE PALESTINE!

By: TOW

TOW — Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000

To Longrifle,

Your rationale is flawed. Why should innocents at the World Trade Center or civilians be killed in the name of god! I do not see the sense of this. The killing of innocents is the nature of evil. It should never be rationalized to fight any power, to influence people by means of media attnetion or used for polictial gain. These type of people deserve not a place at my table but need to be exterminated like the verimin that they are. I am sorry as an American we are the force of good against this scourge.

I understand that we must see the plight of the people in the Arabic countries but the terrorists cannot represent the people in any form.