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	<title>Comments on: INGRATITUDE</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/</link>
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		<title>By: Matthew Yglesias</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8347</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Yglesias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8347</guid>
		<description>Yeah, yeah, but Colonel Jessop was the &lt;i&gt;bad guy&lt;/i&gt; in that film.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, yeah, but Colonel Jessop was the <i>bad guy</i> in that film.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8348</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8348</guid>
		<description>True enough.  Indeed, I&#039;ve &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/001227.html&quot;&gt;said so elsewhere&lt;/a&gt;.  The above words were wrong in the context of excusing the abuse of authority that led to the death of Private Santiago.  But they&#039;re right, I think, in the current situation and, indeed, in a more general sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True enough.  Indeed, I've <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/001227.html">said so elsewhere</a>.  The above words were wrong in the context of excusing the abuse of authority that led to the death of Private Santiago.  But they're right, I think, in the current situation and, indeed, in a more general sense.</p>
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		<title>By: G C</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8349</link>
		<dc:creator>G C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8349</guid>
		<description>Except you didn&#039;t quote the part where Lileks said:

&quot;Hey, Salam? Fuck you.&quot;

That puts a rather more hostile spin on Lilek&#039;s essay, and explains why a lot of Matt&#039;s commenters (including me) think Lileks is WAAAY overboard here.

Not to mention the idea that Iraqis are disgusting cowards for not resisting is absurd.  Try the same argument on for size about concentration camps or confederate slaves and see how it feels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except you didn't quote the part where Lileks said:</p>
<p>"Hey, Salam? Fuck you."</p>
<p>That puts a rather more hostile spin on Lilek's essay, and explains why a lot of Matt's commenters (including me) think Lileks is WAAAY overboard here.</p>
<p>Not to mention the idea that Iraqis are disgusting cowards for not resisting is absurd.  Try the same argument on for size about concentration camps or confederate slaves and see how it feels.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8350</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8350</guid>
		<description>GC,

I skipped the invective because I&#039;m trying to maintain a cleaner tone here.  I think Lilek&#039;s reaction is perfectly justified, though.

I haven&#039;t gone that deeply into the social history of those eras, but I don&#039;t recall the Jews who were liberated from the concentration camps complaining very much.  And many of the slaves actually picked up a rifle and joined the Union army when they had a chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GC,</p>
<p>I skipped the invective because I'm trying to maintain a cleaner tone here.  I think Lilek's reaction is perfectly justified, though.</p>
<p>I haven't gone that deeply into the social history of those eras, but I don't recall the Jews who were liberated from the concentration camps complaining very much.  And many of the slaves actually picked up a rifle and joined the Union army when they had a chance.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8351</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8351</guid>
		<description>Are you guys on the right just being dim to make a point?  Spend some time in a soup kitchen or a half way house and you&#039;ll see the psychology involved.  Help is often not appreciated for a variety of reasons, and the psychology is pretty well understood.

Geesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you guys on the right just being dim to make a point?  Spend some time in a soup kitchen or a half way house and you'll see the psychology involved.  Help is often not appreciated for a variety of reasons, and the psychology is pretty well understood.</p>
<p>Geesh.</p>
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		<title>By: craig henry</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8352</link>
		<dc:creator>craig henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8352</guid>
		<description>I think the last paragraph is key.  &quot;drop the sneer..... be a grownup.&quot;  

That&#039;s why i liked the Lileks&#039;s post.  Salam wasn&#039;t offering a serious critique or advice, he was playing to his audience in England and going for cheap jokes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the last paragraph is key.  "drop the sneer..... be a grownup."  </p>
<p>That's why i liked the Lileks's post.  Salam wasn't offering a serious critique or advice, he was playing to his audience in England and going for cheap jokes.</p>
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		<title>By: G C</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8353</link>
		<dc:creator>G C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8353</guid>
		<description>James,

What I actually said was, &quot;Not to mention the idea that Iraqis are disgusting cowards for not resisting is absurd. Try the same argument on for size about concentration camps or confederate slaves and see how it feels.&quot;

IF you think the Iraqis were cowards for not resisting Saddam, as Lileks does, do you think that Jews in concentration camps and slaves in the Confederate South who did not resist overwhelming force arrayed against hem were also cowards?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>What I actually said was, "Not to mention the idea that Iraqis are disgusting cowards for not resisting is absurd. Try the same argument on for size about concentration camps or confederate slaves and see how it feels."</p>
<p>IF you think the Iraqis were cowards for not resisting Saddam, as Lileks does, do you think that Jews in concentration camps and slaves in the Confederate South who did not resist overwhelming force arrayed against hem were also cowards?</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8354</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8354</guid>
		<description>G C,

Ah. Not really, but it&#039;s a matter of degrees. Clearly, there were slaves and internees who resisted despite the overwhelming odds; they were particularly heroic.  On the other end of the spectrum, there were some who did anything they could to ingratiate themselves with their captors, including spying on their fellows; they were despicable cowards. Most were somewhere in between.

But, unless Lileks is calling himself a coward--he says he&#039;d have done the same thing Salam did--then that&#039;s not his argument.  I certainly don&#039;t blame Salam for trying to hide out until it all passed over; I do feel a bit of outrage over his snarkiness directed toward those who put their lives on the line and secured his freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G C,</p>
<p>Ah. Not really, but it's a matter of degrees. Clearly, there were slaves and internees who resisted despite the overwhelming odds; they were particularly heroic.  On the other end of the spectrum, there were some who did anything they could to ingratiate themselves with their captors, including spying on their fellows; they were despicable cowards. Most were somewhere in between.</p>
<p>But, unless Lileks is calling himself a coward--he says he'd have done the same thing Salam did--then that's not his argument.  I certainly don't blame Salam for trying to hide out until it all passed over; I do feel a bit of outrage over his snarkiness directed toward those who put their lives on the line and secured his freedom.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8355</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8355</guid>
		<description>Actually see Drezner&#039;s response, which is pretty much on the mark.  Good for him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually see Drezner's response, which is pretty much on the mark.  Good for him.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8356</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8356</guid>
		<description>JC,

Fair enough. I&#039;m sure people can feel embittered by the comparative courage of others.  But, surely, it&#039;s permissible for the target of the sneering to resent being sneered at?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC,</p>
<p>Fair enough. I'm sure people can feel embittered by the comparative courage of others.  But, surely, it's permissible for the target of the sneering to resent being sneered at?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Royce</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8357</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Royce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8357</guid>
		<description>Lilek also captures the frustration of the people in flyover country. It typically is their children who are dying, and they also support the recontruction most fehemently. So when Salam sneers, they are hurt, and frustrated. Flyover folk do not want us to leave, or provide ammunition for the intelligencia to demand leaving Iraq. 
As typical dealing with the intelligencia, the hardest words to get out of them are thanks...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lilek also captures the frustration of the people in flyover country. It typically is their children who are dying, and they also support the recontruction most fehemently. So when Salam sneers, they are hurt, and frustrated. Flyover folk do not want us to leave, or provide ammunition for the intelligencia to demand leaving Iraq.<br />
As typical dealing with the intelligencia, the hardest words to get out of them are thanks...</p>
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		<title>By: G C</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8358</link>
		<dc:creator>G C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8358</guid>
		<description>&quot;I understand; I would have done the same. Iâm not brave enough to start a revolution. &quot;

&quot;He died doing what you never had the stones to do&quot;

Sure sounds to me like Lileks calling Salaam a coward.

JC&#039;s right. Drezner&#039;s right on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I understand; I would have done the same. Iâm not brave enough to start a revolution. "</p>
<p>"He died doing what you never had the stones to do"</p>
<p>Sure sounds to me like Lileks calling Salaam a coward.</p>
<p>JC's right. Drezner's right on.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8359</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8359</guid>
		<description>GC,

I think he&#039;s saying Salam isn&#039;t as brave as the soldiers he&#039;s, by extension at least, sneering at.  But, again, he says he wouldn&#039;t have done it either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GC,</p>
<p>I think he's saying Salam isn't as brave as the soldiers he's, by extension at least, sneering at.  But, again, he says he wouldn't have done it either.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabe Posey</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8360</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe Posey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8360</guid>
		<description>IMHO:

James Lileks is writing his blog with his opinion in mind. Is it flawed? Sure, all of our opinions are. Is it wrong, though? Not really. His point is summarized there at the end, &quot;be a grown up&quot;. It&#039;s semantics to argue what his intention was or to try and infer his meaning. Look only at the words he writes and watch for the way he writes them. His whole article is merely a heated response to a growing trend: complaining that you&#039;re not seeing that new Iraqi McDonald&#039;s built fast enough. He wants Salam and all of those with Salam&#039;s penchant for whining to put up or shut up. 

That&#039;s my two cents anyway.I&#039;m busy covering the President&#039;s newest &#039;religion of peace&#039; comments.

http://www.gabeposey.com/thescrawl.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO:</p>
<p>James Lileks is writing his blog with his opinion in mind. Is it flawed? Sure, all of our opinions are. Is it wrong, though? Not really. His point is summarized there at the end, "be a grown up". It's semantics to argue what his intention was or to try and infer his meaning. Look only at the words he writes and watch for the way he writes them. His whole article is merely a heated response to a growing trend: complaining that you're not seeing that new Iraqi McDonald's built fast enough. He wants Salam and all of those with Salam's penchant for whining to put up or shut up. </p>
<p>That's my two cents anyway.I'm busy covering the President's newest 'religion of peace' comments.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gabeposey.com/thescrawl.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.gabeposey.com/thescrawl.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gabe Posey</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/ingratitude/comment-page-1/#comment-8361</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe Posey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=3965#comment-8361</guid>
		<description>Well that should have been http://www.gabeposey.com/thescrawl.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well that should have been <a href="http://www.gabeposey.com/thescrawl.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.gabeposey.com/thescrawl.htm</a></p>
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