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	<title>Comments on: Iraq Kurds Invade Turkey, Kill 17 (Updated)</title>
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		<title>By: gil</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-196512</link>
		<dc:creator>gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-196512</guid>
		<description>The current problems between Turkey and the Kurds was predicted by the Turkish Government, the European Union, and the Arab Nations pre-invasion of Iraq.

In fact Dick Cheney in a 1994 interview predicted not only the possibility of a war between the Kurds, and the Turks, but also the war between Sunni, and Shiite if we invaded Iraq. It would become a &quot;quagmire&quot;, he said with Iraq desintegrating into regions controlled by Shiite, Sunni, and Kurd &quot;strong man&quot;.

It is troubling for me to see every pre-war warning become a reality. It is even more troubling to find out that our so called &quot;leaders&quot; knew perfectly well what the outcome of an invasion to Iraq was going to be, and did it anyway. It is for this reason that In my opinion Dick Cheney and George Bush are either traitors to this nation at worst, or the biggest idiots in God&#039;s creation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The current problems between Turkey and the Kurds was predicted by the Turkish Government, the European Union, and the Arab Nations pre-invasion of Iraq.</p>
<p>In fact Dick Cheney in a 1994 interview predicted not only the possibility of a war between the Kurds, and the Turks, but also the war between Sunni, and Shiite if we invaded Iraq. It would become a "quagmire", he said with Iraq desintegrating into regions controlled by Shiite, Sunni, and Kurd "strong man".</p>
<p>It is troubling for me to see every pre-war warning become a reality. It is even more troubling to find out that our so called "leaders" knew perfectly well what the outcome of an invasion to Iraq was going to be, and did it anyway. It is for this reason that In my opinion Dick Cheney and George Bush are either traitors to this nation at worst, or the biggest idiots in God's creation.</p>
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		<title>By: Blogspotting: Skarbutts &#171; Wolf Pangloss</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-195575</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogspotting: Skarbutts &#171; Wolf Pangloss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-195575</guid>
		<description>[...] to Nuke&#8217;s, Outside the Beltway, The Populist, Shadowscope, The Pink Flamingo, Webloggin, Conservative Thoughts, Right Voices, and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to Nuke&#8217;s, Outside the Beltway, The Populist, Shadowscope, The Pink Flamingo, Webloggin, Conservative Thoughts, Right Voices, and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194898</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194898</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;arguments pro and con a Kurdistan have been made since the fall of the Ottomans. And yes, Iraqi Kurdistan is where about half of Iraq&#039;s oil is to be found.&lt;blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So what are the good arguments either way, either from a USA realpolitik perspective or a decency perspective?  

I knew there is oil in Iraqi Kurdistan, what I wasn&#039;t sure about is the Kurdish area controlled by Turkey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>arguments pro and con a Kurdistan have been made since the fall of the Ottomans. And yes, Iraqi Kurdistan is where about half of Iraq's oil is to be found.<br />
<blockquote>
<blockquote></blockquote>
<p>So what are the good arguments either way, either from a USA realpolitik perspective or a decency perspective?  </p>
<p>I knew there is oil in Iraqi Kurdistan, what I wasn't sure about is the Kurdish area controlled by Turkey.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: John Q. Public</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194840</link>
		<dc:creator>John Q. Public</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194840</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Comment in violation of &lt;a href=&quot;http://otbmedia.org/policies.html&quot; title=&quot;OTB Site Policies&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;site policies&lt;/a&gt; deleted.&lt;/em&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Comment in violation of <a href="http://otbmedia.org/policies.html" title="OTB Site Policies" rel="nofollow">site policies</a> deleted.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Turks Protest Attacks on Turkish Soldiers &#171; The Van Der Galiën Gazette</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194787</link>
		<dc:creator>Turks Protest Attacks on Turkish Soldiers &#171; The Van Der Galiën Gazette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194787</guid>
		<description>[...] and they&#8217;d better stop attacking Turkish soldiers and civilians. To make matters even worse, Dave Schuler reports for Outside the Beltway that Talibani told an Iraqi newspaper that he can&#8217;t do anything about the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and they&#8217;d better stop attacking Turkish soldiers and civilians. To make matters even worse, Dave Schuler reports for Outside the Beltway that Talibani told an Iraqi newspaper that he can&#8217;t do anything about the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194756</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194756</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If Turkey *did* apply -- and I am inclined to think they should -- then the allies would have to either respond, or send a message to the smaller allies that attacks on them don&#039;t matter much when it&#039;s in the U.S. interest to ignore said attacks.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I tend to agree.  The Membership might be inclined to argue that a small border incursion by a terrorist-guerrilla element doesn&#039;t warrant a group response, especially if WWIII is a foreseeable outcome.  But, yes, I think Turkey has every right to bring this before the Council.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If Turkey *did* apply -- and I am inclined to think they should -- then the allies would have to either respond, or send a message to the smaller allies that attacks on them don't matter much when it's in the U.S. interest to ignore said attacks.</p></blockquote>
<p>I tend to agree.  The Membership might be inclined to argue that a small border incursion by a terrorist-guerrilla element doesn't warrant a group response, especially if WWIII is a foreseeable outcome.  But, yes, I think Turkey has every right to bring this before the Council.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194754</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194754</guid>
		<description>Paul, arguments pro and con a Kurdistan have been made since the fall of the Ottomans. And yes, Iraqi Kurdistan is where about half of Iraq&#039;s oil is to be found.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, arguments pro and con a Kurdistan have been made since the fall of the Ottomans. And yes, Iraqi Kurdistan is where about half of Iraq's oil is to be found.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194739</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194739</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;It’s highly unlikely that Turkey will ask for NATO assistance in this matter, much less that others will answer but the attack is certainly grounds for invoking the mutual defense pact.&lt;/em&gt;

That reading would mean that, unlike every other NATO member, Turkey has no redress for attacks on a substantial part of its territory.  (The only other application that comes to mind would be an attack on Hawaii, but that&#039;s much less substantial a part of the U.S.)

However, if you click the footnote, you&#039;ll see that the language was modified when Turkey joined, to cover an attack

&lt;i&gt;on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, &lt;b&gt;on the territory of Turkey&lt;/b&gt; or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer&lt;/i&gt;

If Turkey *did* apply -- and I am inclined to think they should -- then the allies would have to either respond, or send a message to the smaller allies that attacks on them don&#039;t matter much when it&#039;s in the U.S. interest to ignore said attacks.

Given the looming presence of neo-tsarist Russia, I&#039;d imagine that would cause the price of NATO shares to tumble, so to speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>It&rsquo;s highly unlikely that Turkey will ask for NATO assistance in this matter, much less that others will answer but the attack is certainly grounds for invoking the mutual defense pact.</em></p>
<p>That reading would mean that, unlike every other NATO member, Turkey has no redress for attacks on a substantial part of its territory.  (The only other application that comes to mind would be an attack on Hawaii, but that's much less substantial a part of the U.S.)</p>
<p>However, if you click the footnote, you'll see that the language was modified when Turkey joined, to cover an attack</p>
<p><i>on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, <b>on the territory of Turkey</b> or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer</i></p>
<p>If Turkey *did* apply -- and I am inclined to think they should -- then the allies would have to either respond, or send a message to the smaller allies that attacks on them don't matter much when it's in the U.S. interest to ignore said attacks.</p>
<p>Given the looming presence of neo-tsarist Russia, I'd imagine that would cause the price of NATO shares to tumble, so to speak.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194738</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194738</guid>
		<description>If that part of Turkey is primarily Kurdish, what are the arguments (other than that Turkey is an important country) for not supporting the creation of a Kurdish state that includes &quot;Iraqi&quot; Kurdistan?  Why does Turkey want it, is there oil?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If that part of Turkey is primarily Kurdish, what are the arguments (other than that Turkey is an important country) for not supporting the creation of a Kurdish state that includes "Iraqi" Kurdistan?  Why does Turkey want it, is there oil?</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194730</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194730</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The attack was on the Asian part of Turkey, not its European territory, so theoretically Article 5 doesn&#039;t appl&lt;/blockquote&gt;

An interesting point.  Turkey wasn&#039;t an original Member, so clearly that caveat wasn&#039;t considered. Presumably, the wording simply allows NATO to opt out of colonial wars.  An attack on a Member state itself, however, would be difficult to exclude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The attack was on the Asian part of Turkey, not its European territory, so theoretically Article 5 doesn't appl</p></blockquote>
<p>An interesting point.  Turkey wasn't an original Member, so clearly that caveat wasn't considered. Presumably, the wording simply allows NATO to opt out of colonial wars.  An attack on a Member state itself, however, would be difficult to exclude.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194682</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194682</guid>
		<description>The PKK is instigating a Turkish overreaction, luring the Turks into a sustained guerrilla war like the one in Iraq and Lebanon in which hit and run tactics on friendly turf overwhelms a conventional army.  I think the only way for us to prevent the Turks from going in is to put our soldiers (or NATO, or UN) in as a buffer.  Given the state of our forces, we don&#039;t have any extra to offer.  Maybe our allies might.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The PKK is instigating a Turkish overreaction, luring the Turks into a sustained guerrilla war like the one in Iraq and Lebanon in which hit and run tactics on friendly turf overwhelms a conventional army.  I think the only way for us to prevent the Turks from going in is to put our soldiers (or NATO, or UN) in as a buffer.  Given the state of our forces, we don't have any extra to offer.  Maybe our allies might.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194670</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The attack was on the Asian part of Turkey, not its European territory, so theoretically Article 5 doesn&#039;t apply, unless there are additional caveats elsewhere in the charter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The attack was on the Asian part of Turkey, not its European territory, so theoretically Article 5 doesn't apply, unless there are additional caveats elsewhere in the charter.</p>
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		<title>By: Iran &#187; Blog Archives &#187; - Iran vil aldri få atomvåpen</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/comment-page-1/#comment-194662</link>
		<dc:creator>Iran &#187; Blog Archives &#187; - Iran vil aldri få atomvåpen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/iraq_kurds_invade_turkey_kill_17_/#comment-194662</guid>
		<description>[...] Iraq Kurds Invade Turkey, Kill 17 The likelihood of Turkey sending troops into Iraqi Kurdistan has ratcheted up several notches, with a major assault by PKK rebels into Turkey from Iraqi territory. An audacious cross-border ambush by Kurdish rebels based in northern Iraq killed at least 17 Turkish soldiers Sunday, ratcheting up pressure &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Iraq Kurds Invade Turkey, Kill 17 The likelihood of Turkey sending troops into Iraqi Kurdistan has ratcheted up several notches, with a major assault by PKK rebels into Turkey from Iraqi territory. An audacious cross-border ambush by Kurdish rebels based in northern Iraq killed at least 17 Turkish soldiers Sunday, ratcheting up pressure &#8230; [...]</p>
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