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	<title>Comments on: Is Credit Drying Up?</title>
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		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516415</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 00:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516415</guid>
		<description>But is it slowing because their aren&#039;t borrowers or because there aren&#039;t funds?  The former is probably a good thing while the latter isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But is it slowing because their aren't borrowers or because there aren't funds?  The former is probably a good thing while the latter isn't.</p>
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		<title>By: spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516412</link>
		<dc:creator>spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I suggest you look a the Fed quarterly flow of funds data.  It is the best available and gives accurate aggregate data while others are cherry picking data series to prove the point they want to.  Offsetting this the flow of funds data is slow in being reported.  But as of the second quarter is clearly shows a sharp slowing in the growth of total credit from double digit levels to around 3%.  It will be interesting to see the final third quarter flow of funds data.  I will really be surprised if it does not show a continued sharp slowing of credit growth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest you look a the Fed quarterly flow of funds data.  It is the best available and gives accurate aggregate data while others are cherry picking data series to prove the point they want to.  Offsetting this the flow of funds data is slow in being reported.  But as of the second quarter is clearly shows a sharp slowing in the growth of total credit from double digit levels to around 3%.  It will be interesting to see the final third quarter flow of funds data.  I will really be surprised if it does not show a continued sharp slowing of credit growth</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516407</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If those credit lines are not declining, then perhaps Higgs and Reynolds are right on their view of the overall market.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s true, I&#039;ve only looked in detail at one series, not all of them.  I don&#039;t have that kind of time right now.  If I get that kind of time I will post more on this.  I guess my view is in the middle, but closer to the Higgs/Reynolds viewpoint.  If we aren&#039;t already in recession we very well could be if credit contracts enough.

Note I&#039;m not predicting catastrophe; just that the economy isn&#039;t going to be doing well for awhile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If those credit lines are not declining, then perhaps Higgs and Reynolds are right on their view of the overall market.</p></blockquote>
<p>That's true, I've only looked in detail at one series, not all of them.  I don't have that kind of time right now.  If I get that kind of time I will post more on this.  I guess my view is in the middle, but closer to the Higgs/Reynolds viewpoint.  If we aren't already in recession we very well could be if credit contracts enough.</p>
<p>Note I'm not predicting catastrophe; just that the economy isn't going to be doing well for awhile.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516396</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Steve,
    What was particularly interesting to me was the lack of such a decline in the non-realestate numbers.  From my understanding, the &quot;credit crunch&quot; problem is that businesses and governments can&#039;t get short-term credit to cover immediate expenses, not that they can&#039;t get credit to purchase real estate.  If those credit lines are not declining, then perhaps Higgs and Reynolds are right on their view of the overall market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,<br />
    What was particularly interesting to me was the lack of such a decline in the non-realestate numbers.  From my understanding, the "credit crunch" problem is that businesses and governments can't get short-term credit to cover immediate expenses, not that they can't get credit to purchase real estate.  If those credit lines are not declining, then perhaps Higgs and Reynolds are right on their view of the overall market.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516392</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516392</guid>
		<description>Michael,

Yes.  Not sure if your correct or not.  For example, my home loan is in there somewhere and that assets value probably hasn&#039;t changed a whole lot since I haven&#039;t refinanced in years.  On the other hand, a mortgage that definitely goes south and the borrower has stopped paying?  I don&#039;t know what that does.  I&#039;d think it would lower the value.  In any event it is a crude measure to be sure.  And I don&#039;t think comparing the current values to the value a year ago is all that good a way to look at the data.  A graph and some basic statistics go much further, IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>Yes.  Not sure if your correct or not.  For example, my home loan is in there somewhere and that assets value probably hasn't changed a whole lot since I haven't refinanced in years.  On the other hand, a mortgage that definitely goes south and the borrower has stopped paying?  I don't know what that does.  I'd think it would lower the value.  In any event it is a crude measure to be sure.  And I don't think comparing the current values to the value a year ago is all that good a way to look at the data.  A graph and some basic statistics go much further, IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516388</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516388</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Things can&#039;t be looking bright there if the Fed is stepping in to make short term loans to businesses.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I still think it would have been better had the government borrowed money from these banks that have the money but are worried about making a bad load, like I suggested a while ago.

Steve,
    Those numbers look to be the value of assets in commercial banks at that time, am I right?  If that is the case, then wouldn&#039;t the mark-down in the value of existing mortgage-backed assets account for the drop in mid-July, and not necessarily a drop in the amount of credit being issued for real estate?  Overall credit for the same time period didn&#039;t decline significantly, so this seems isolated to real estate investments, not things like commercial paper, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Things can't be looking bright there if the Fed is stepping in to make short term loans to businesses.</p></blockquote>
<p>I still think it would have been better had the government borrowed money from these banks that have the money but are worried about making a bad load, like I suggested a while ago.</p>
<p>Steve,<br />
    Those numbers look to be the value of assets in commercial banks at that time, am I right?  If that is the case, then wouldn't the mark-down in the value of existing mortgage-backed assets account for the drop in mid-July, and not necessarily a drop in the amount of credit being issued for real estate?  Overall credit for the same time period didn't decline significantly, so this seems isolated to real estate investments, not things like commercial paper, right?</p>
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		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516366</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516366</guid>
		<description>Steve, I&#039;ll have an anecdotal data point for you in about two weeks after I&#039;ve met with my banker to discuss next year&#039;s financing needs.  I am a lot more worried about small companies like mine not being able to get credit than about Lehman Brothers going under.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I'll have an anecdotal data point for you in about two weeks after I've met with my banker to discuss next year's financing needs.  I am a lot more worried about small companies like mine not being able to get credit than about Lehman Brothers going under.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516363</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516363</guid>
		<description>Arcs,

Sorry no, that trend line is flat.  Statistically the result is indistinguishable from zero.

Oh and the trend since 4/2 is negative and statistically significant, so no that assertion is false too.

Robert,

&lt;blockquote&gt;Small declines in outstanding credit are not accurately described by terms such as &quot;drying up,&quot; &quot;frozen credit,&quot; &quot;locked-up credit markets,&quot; &quot;melting-down credit markets&quot; and others now current in the financial press and among commentators, especially when we recognize how rapidly credit has grown in recent years.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I guess that depends on what we are looking at.  The week-to-week changes are usually  not very large when taken as a percentage of the whole.  Going from an average change of just under 5 billion to negative 2 billion is a big change.  Is there a melt-down?  That is hyperbole to be sure, but there is less credit than there was and the pinch is starting to be felt.  Will it lead to the catastrophe some have predicted...I doubt it.

I&#039;ve read your work, especially &lt;em&gt;Crisis and Leviathan&lt;/em&gt;, and I don&#039;t think we are at a point that justified the bailout bill.  Maybe something needed to be done, I&#039;m still not convinced, but that was just stupid, IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arcs,</p>
<p>Sorry no, that trend line is flat.  Statistically the result is indistinguishable from zero.</p>
<p>Oh and the trend since 4/2 is negative and statistically significant, so no that assertion is false too.</p>
<p>Robert,</p>
<blockquote><p>Small declines in outstanding credit are not accurately described by terms such as "drying up," "frozen credit," "locked-up credit markets," "melting-down credit markets" and others now current in the financial press and among commentators, especially when we recognize how rapidly credit has grown in recent years.</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess that depends on what we are looking at.  The week-to-week changes are usually  not very large when taken as a percentage of the whole.  Going from an average change of just under 5 billion to negative 2 billion is a big change.  Is there a melt-down?  That is hyperbole to be sure, but there is less credit than there was and the pinch is starting to be felt.  Will it lead to the catastrophe some have predicted...I doubt it.</p>
<p>I've read your work, especially <em>Crisis and Leviathan</em>, and I don't think we are at a point that justified the bailout bill.  Maybe something needed to be done, I'm still not convinced, but that was just stupid, IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Arcs</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516356</link>
		<dc:creator>Arcs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516356</guid>
		<description>Talk about cherry-picking the data. If, instead of 6/11/2008 for the initial point of your trend-line analysis, you were to use 7/9/2008 or any date prior to 4/1/2008, the trend is definitely UP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talk about cherry-picking the data. If, instead of 6/11/2008 for the initial point of your trend-line analysis, you were to use 7/9/2008 or any date prior to 4/1/2008, the trend is definitely UP.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Higgs</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516355</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Higgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516355</guid>
		<description>Small declines in outstanding credit are not accurately described by terms such as &quot;drying up,&quot; &quot;frozen credit,&quot; &quot;locked-up credit markets,&quot; &quot;melting-down credit markets&quot; and others now current in the financial press and among commentators, especially when we recognize how rapidly credit has grown in recent years. We now know very well that for several years much credit was extended recklessly, without due diligence, to borrowers who were not actually creditworthy. The declines in outstanding credit we are now seeing in SOME PARTS of the credit market should not be viewed as necessarily a bad thing. Credit can be, and in recent years has been, overextended, given the underlying economic realities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Small declines in outstanding credit are not accurately described by terms such as "drying up," "frozen credit," "locked-up credit markets," "melting-down credit markets" and others now current in the financial press and among commentators, especially when we recognize how rapidly credit has grown in recent years. We now know very well that for several years much credit was extended recklessly, without due diligence, to borrowers who were not actually creditworthy. The declines in outstanding credit we are now seeing in SOME PARTS of the credit market should not be viewed as necessarily a bad thing. Credit can be, and in recent years has been, overextended, given the underlying economic realities.</p>
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		<title>By: markm</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516354</link>
		<dc:creator>markm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25872#comment-516354</guid>
		<description>Stupid question...how does all this relate to credit card credit. Is it one in the same?. The only reason I ask is I had to go to a large shopping mall last weekend in Novi Michigan. On the way to the mall I was thinking the place would be almost empty and I could quickly get my goods and split. I was wrong, it was PACKED...like December 23rd packed. Were people &quot;gettin&#039; while the gettin&#039; was good???.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stupid question...how does all this relate to credit card credit. Is it one in the same?. The only reason I ask is I had to go to a large shopping mall last weekend in Novi Michigan. On the way to the mall I was thinking the place would be almost empty and I could quickly get my goods and split. I was wrong, it was PACKED...like December 23rd packed. Were people "gettin' while the gettin' was good???.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Knapp</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/is_credit_drying_up/comment-page-1/#comment-516352</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Knapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The commercial paper outlook is bad, too.  Things can&#039;t be looking bright there if the Fed is stepping in to make short term loans to businesses.  What&#039;s even worse is now the dollar is getting strong at exactly the wrong time we need it to...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The commercial paper outlook is bad, too.  Things can't be looking bright there if the Fed is stepping in to make short term loans to businesses.  What's even worse is now the dollar is getting strong at exactly the wrong time we need it to...</p>
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