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	<title>Comments on: Judge Rules Against Ohio Polling Place Challenges</title>
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		<title>By: Chris Crawford</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26294</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26294</guid>
		<description>You seem to underestimate the importance of the basic concept I argue: that the law almost always works more effectively when used as an after-the-fact deterrent rather than an on-the-spot task. Sure, a murder prosecution doesn&#039;t bring back the dead, but we all can&#039;t go around wearing body armor. Voter fraud is a serious crime, and we should prosecute it. If it really is happening, then the people perpetrating it should be easy to track down, as they leave a solid paper trail. Why should we chase ghosts at the polls, disrupting that process, when we can nail voter fraud after the fact? If we can&#039;t nail it after the fact, then we certainly can&#039;t catch it at the polls, and if we can nail it after the fact, then we can prosecute the perpetrators and send them to jail. And to be consistent, we should also prosecute the various other attempts to foil the integrity of the voting process, such as the fraudulent letters sent to some newly registered voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to underestimate the importance of the basic concept I argue: that the law almost always works more effectively when used as an after-the-fact deterrent rather than an on-the-spot task. Sure, a murder prosecution doesn't bring back the dead, but we all can't go around wearing body armor. Voter fraud is a serious crime, and we should prosecute it. If it really is happening, then the people perpetrating it should be easy to track down, as they leave a solid paper trail. Why should we chase ghosts at the polls, disrupting that process, when we can nail voter fraud after the fact? If we can't nail it after the fact, then we certainly can't catch it at the polls, and if we can nail it after the fact, then we can prosecute the perpetrators and send them to jail. And to be consistent, we should also prosecute the various other attempts to foil the integrity of the voting process, such as the fraudulent letters sent to some newly registered voters.</p>
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		<title>By: mikem</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26267</link>
		<dc:creator>mikem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26267</guid>
		<description>Chris: I&#039;ll just drop this exchange because I think you are trolling by making deliberately naive statements like &quot; Whoâs willing to go to jail for a year to get their candidate elected?&quot; Considering the tens of thousands of fraudulant registrations by ACT exposed in Ohio it is obvious that tens of thousnds will risk it because they will not be prosecuted and spend a year in jail. I had thought you were trying to make a point about voter fraud and how to prevent it, but you are just trying to rationalize not preventing it because &#039;no one would dare&#039; and I will not believe you are that naive. Good troll though, I actually took you seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: I'll just drop this exchange because I think you are trolling by making deliberately naive statements like " Whoâs willing to go to jail for a year to get their candidate elected?" Considering the tens of thousands of fraudulant registrations by ACT exposed in Ohio it is obvious that tens of thousnds will risk it because they will not be prosecuted and spend a year in jail. I had thought you were trying to make a point about voter fraud and how to prevent it, but you are just trying to rationalize not preventing it because 'no one would dare' and I will not believe you are that naive. Good troll though, I actually took you seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Crawford</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26264</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26264</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t know who the criminal voted for, but we do know that he voted; that&#039;s all that matters to insure a successful prosecution. And if we can guarantee a successful prosecution, then we can prevent voter fraud. Who&#039;s willing to go to jail for a year to get their candidate elected? 

I&#039;d very much like to see aggressive prosecution off ALL forms of electoral misbehavior, including all cases of people sending out letters that deliberately mislead voters about their polling places or times of voting, letters that falsely suggest that they are not properly registered, phone calls that misdirect them, and so forth. And of course, any outright vote fraud must be prosecuted aggressively. Let&#039;s throw all those crooks in jail!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don't know who the criminal voted for, but we do know that he voted; that's all that matters to insure a successful prosecution. And if we can guarantee a successful prosecution, then we can prevent voter fraud. Who's willing to go to jail for a year to get their candidate elected? </p>
<p>I'd very much like to see aggressive prosecution off ALL forms of electoral misbehavior, including all cases of people sending out letters that deliberately mislead voters about their polling places or times of voting, letters that falsely suggest that they are not properly registered, phone calls that misdirect them, and so forth. And of course, any outright vote fraud must be prosecuted aggressively. Let's throw all those crooks in jail!</p>
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		<title>By: mikem</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26262</link>
		<dc:creator>mikem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26262</guid>
		<description>Chris: You are speaking of criminal prosecution. That would be a surprising result. I am no lawyer and do not follow that issue specifically but I read a lot and cannot recall a single prosecution. My point, and I thought we were talking about the same thing, is that even a successfully argued post election charge of voter fraud can do nothing to change the result of the vote. The fraud, even if detected, is successful. Of course the reason is that voting is by secret ballot and a judge would have no way of determining who the fraudulent voter voted for. That is why voter fraud needs to be detected before the vote, not after the fraud is rewarded with victory by having the vote counted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: You are speaking of criminal prosecution. That would be a surprising result. I am no lawyer and do not follow that issue specifically but I read a lot and cannot recall a single prosecution. My point, and I thought we were talking about the same thing, is that even a successfully argued post election charge of voter fraud can do nothing to change the result of the vote. The fraud, even if detected, is successful. Of course the reason is that voting is by secret ballot and a judge would have no way of determining who the fraudulent voter voted for. That is why voter fraud needs to be detected before the vote, not after the fraud is rewarded with victory by having the vote counted.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Crawford</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26255</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 04:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26255</guid>
		<description>mikem: If the purpose of post-election verification is to identify and prosecute fraudulent voters, the deterrent value is entirely effective and it doesn&#039;t have any deleterious effect on the polling process itself. Many crimes are prevented by &quot;the paper trail&quot; that points to the criminal. The same should work just as effectively here. Trying to stop vote fraud at the polling place is like trying to build a car that can&#039;t be stolen: the only way to do it well is to make the car almost unusable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mikem: If the purpose of post-election verification is to identify and prosecute fraudulent voters, the deterrent value is entirely effective and it doesn't have any deleterious effect on the polling process itself. Many crimes are prevented by "the paper trail" that points to the criminal. The same should work just as effectively here. Trying to stop vote fraud at the polling place is like trying to build a car that can't be stolen: the only way to do it well is to make the car almost unusable.</p>
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		<title>By: Puddle Pirate</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26241</link>
		<dc:creator>Puddle Pirate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 02:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26241</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.brainshavings.com/mt/archives/001402.html&quot;&gt;I&#039;m an Ohio Republican observer&lt;/a&gt; in Lorain County&#039;s eighth ward, and I&#039;d liveblog the day if I could do it without shortchanging my duties and inviting Democrat lawsuits.  Unfortunately I can&#039;t.  If anything interesting happens, I&#039;ll post something when I get back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.brainshavings.com/mt/archives/001402.html">I'm an Ohio Republican observer</a> in Lorain County's eighth ward, and I'd liveblog the day if I could do it without shortchanging my duties and inviting Democrat lawsuits.  Unfortunately I can't.  If anything interesting happens, I'll post something when I get back.</p>
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		<title>By: mikem</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26237</link>
		<dc:creator>mikem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 02:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26237</guid>
		<description>Chris: It is too late afterwards as has been shown repeatedly (Kennedy/ Nixon for one obvious example).
PS: Court of Appeals overturned the Federal judge on poll watchers issue, as per a news broadcast I saw two minutes ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: It is too late afterwards as has been shown repeatedly (Kennedy/ Nixon for one obvious example).<br />
PS: Court of Appeals overturned the Federal judge on poll watchers issue, as per a news broadcast I saw two minutes ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Crawford</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26234</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 01:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26234</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that voting day is the wrong time to be battling fraud; it&#039;s too frantic and too inconvenient for the voters. All challenges should be carried out both beforehand and afterwards. All those volunteers who are so hot to challenge voters at the polls should be just as willing to plow through all the voting records after the fact to identify those who committed vote fraud. Then prosecute the perpetrators. Isn&#039;t that a cleaner and more efficacious approach than adding to the confusion at the polls?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that voting day is the wrong time to be battling fraud; it's too frantic and too inconvenient for the voters. All challenges should be carried out both beforehand and afterwards. All those volunteers who are so hot to challenge voters at the polls should be just as willing to plow through all the voting records after the fact to identify those who committed vote fraud. Then prosecute the perpetrators. Isn't that a cleaner and more efficacious approach than adding to the confusion at the polls?</p>
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		<title>By: The Rand Holman Show ONLINE</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26231</link>
		<dc:creator>The Rand Holman Show ONLINE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26231</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Damage analysis of U.S. District Judge Susan Dlott&lt;/strong&gt;
When I wrote about this story earlier this afternoon, I was incensed. But then I read what the guys at Power Line (all lawyers) said and showed us about her and her husband&#039;s very active connection to the Democratic Party . . . And as James said abov...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Damage analysis of U.S. District Judge Susan Dlott</strong><br />
When I wrote about this story earlier this afternoon, I was incensed. But then I read what the guys at Power Line (all lawyers) said and showed us about her and her husband's very active connection to the Democratic Party . . . And as James said abov...</p>
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		<title>By: great satan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26221</link>
		<dc:creator>great satan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26221</guid>
		<description>&quot;...The planned voter disruption intentionally targeting Black districts is racist. How long will the wait to vote be? Are we a society of inclusion or exclusion...&quot;

just wondering Bill,

if people in these districts are committing fraud, shouldnt they be stopped??? regardless of the color of the skin of the persons committing the fraud???

you call it voter disruption... I call it fraud disruption...surely you dont mean to suggest that we are a society that should allow fraud to affect the election process(even if it helps the guy you&#039;re rooting for)... that surely would be exclusionary, wouldnt it?

also, how does providing legit ID to prove you are who you say you are intimidate or supress or disenfranchise or disrupt anyones ability to vote???  


PS: Im a Democrat... and Im disgusted by the &#039;win at any cost, even if we have to cheat&#039; mentality of my party... see the Pennsylvania prison voter registration program... sad... we fight for the right to keep military&#039;s votes from being counted while actively signing up the prison roles...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"...The planned voter disruption intentionally targeting Black districts is racist. How long will the wait to vote be? Are we a society of inclusion or exclusion..."</p>
<p>just wondering Bill,</p>
<p>if people in these districts are committing fraud, shouldnt they be stopped??? regardless of the color of the skin of the persons committing the fraud???</p>
<p>you call it voter disruption... I call it fraud disruption...surely you dont mean to suggest that we are a society that should allow fraud to affect the election process(even if it helps the guy you're rooting for)... that surely would be exclusionary, wouldnt it?</p>
<p>also, how does providing legit ID to prove you are who you say you are intimidate or supress or disenfranchise or disrupt anyones ability to vote???  </p>
<p>PS: Im a Democrat... and Im disgusted by the 'win at any cost, even if we have to cheat' mentality of my party... see the Pennsylvania prison voter registration program... sad... we fight for the right to keep military's votes from being counted while actively signing up the prison roles...</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schneiderr</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26220</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schneiderr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26220</guid>
		<description>So blacks are, as a race, subject to intimidation and require protection that allows massive fraud withing the system? What sort of admission is that?

This is nothing more than throwing the race card at an otherwise longstanding and neutrally balanced provision of the law to handcuff those who would try to assure honest elections.  Each side claims to have registered many new voters and each has been accused of fraud in doing so.  The Democrats claim to have registered more new voters.  But they claim a pass on the duty to show the legitimacy of their new voters by screaming about racism.

Last presidential election saw Democrats complain about the vote in many predominately Democratic areas and try to get the courts to change the counting. This election is likely to see far more involvement by lawyers and judges.  Many people disagreed with the outcome last time.  More will undoubtedly disagree this time and the whole process will fall into disrepute and ridicule.

Seriously, have we come to the point where victory itself is more important than having an election that people see is fair?  That&#039;s going to be terribly dangerous in the long run, as it is a game that both sides can play.  If they do, the credibility of our democratic system will be lost.

I couldn&#039;t agree more with the argument that playing the game within the established rules is far preferable to trying to change the rules after the outcome seems cast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So blacks are, as a race, subject to intimidation and require protection that allows massive fraud withing the system? What sort of admission is that?</p>
<p>This is nothing more than throwing the race card at an otherwise longstanding and neutrally balanced provision of the law to handcuff those who would try to assure honest elections.  Each side claims to have registered many new voters and each has been accused of fraud in doing so.  The Democrats claim to have registered more new voters.  But they claim a pass on the duty to show the legitimacy of their new voters by screaming about racism.</p>
<p>Last presidential election saw Democrats complain about the vote in many predominately Democratic areas and try to get the courts to change the counting. This election is likely to see far more involvement by lawyers and judges.  Many people disagreed with the outcome last time.  More will undoubtedly disagree this time and the whole process will fall into disrepute and ridicule.</p>
<p>Seriously, have we come to the point where victory itself is more important than having an election that people see is fair?  That's going to be terribly dangerous in the long run, as it is a game that both sides can play.  If they do, the credibility of our democratic system will be lost.</p>
<p>I couldn't agree more with the argument that playing the game within the established rules is far preferable to trying to change the rules after the outcome seems cast.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anondson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26217</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Anondson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26217</guid>
		<description>Why do Democrats like opportunities for voter fraud in America, but rail against the same opportunities in the rest of the world?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do Democrats like opportunities for voter fraud in America, but rail against the same opportunities in the rest of the world?</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26211</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26211</guid>
		<description>AS: Well, OF COURSE Republicans are mainly going to concentrate on potential fraud that helps the Democrats.  It&#039;s up to the Democrats to look out for their own interests.  As long as all that&#039;s being done is checking ID and so forth, both parties have a responsibility to do that in order to protect their voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AS: Well, OF COURSE Republicans are mainly going to concentrate on potential fraud that helps the Democrats.  It's up to the Democrats to look out for their own interests.  As long as all that's being done is checking ID and so forth, both parties have a responsibility to do that in order to protect their voters.</p>
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		<title>By: John P.</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26209</link>
		<dc:creator>John P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26209</guid>
		<description>The time it takes to verify a voter&#039;s name and address from a photo id or voter registration card against the voter roll is less than the time to responsibly complete a voter ballot. The long waits are from not having enough voter booths (i.e. voters waiting for the other voters) not from checking ID. The election supervisors at least should perform the minimum of checking off the name on the voter roll to prevent double-voting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The time it takes to verify a voter's name and address from a photo id or voter registration card against the voter roll is less than the time to responsibly complete a voter ballot. The long waits are from not having enough voter booths (i.e. voters waiting for the other voters) not from checking ID. The election supervisors at least should perform the minimum of checking off the name on the voter roll to prevent double-voting.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Buehner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_rules_against_ohio_polling_place_challenges/comment-page-1/#comment-26208</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Buehner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7863#comment-26208</guid>
		<description>Every fraudelent vote that gets counted disenfranchises one voter who went the opposite way. Way dont the courts consider that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every fraudelent vote that gets counted disenfranchises one voter who went the opposite way. Way dont the courts consider that?</p>
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