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	<title>Comments on: Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional</title>
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		<title>By: Captain Video</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57814</link>
		<dc:creator>Captain Video</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2005 07:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The United States is obviously not a Christian nation, no matter how many places the 10 commandments are posted. A Christian nation would not have millions of its people living in abject poverty without sufficient food, clothing, and shelter,and without adequate access to medical care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The United States is obviously not a Christian nation, no matter how many places the 10 commandments are posted. A Christian nation would not have millions of its people living in abject poverty without sufficient food, clothing, and shelter,and without adequate access to medical care.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57763</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57763</guid>
		<description>our &quot;so-called&quot; christian nation


Currently featured at harpers.org is a an aptly humble assessment of religion in The United States, by a scholar and genuine Christian named Bill McKibben, titled &quot;The Christian Paradox&quot;. Were it within my control, this would be required reading for all high school students, everyone desiring to vote, anyone seeking a driver&#039;s license, or a marriage license, all new parents, pretty much everybody. It is a reflection that all who like to wear their &quot;faith&quot; on their sleeves, for purposes that bear no relation to the Gospels, ought to read daily. You know who you are and I fear for you, though less than I fear the spiritual ruin you cause by your ways.

Like McKibben, I was raised in a small town and attended Sunday School and church, 48 out of 52 Sundays, I&#039;d guess. Since graduating from college 24 years ago, I have probably made it to under 48 worship services. That is about to change, for reasons I am unable to explain. I think I have found an Episcopal Parish that follows the admonitions of Jesus having to do with loving one&#039;s neighbors, and shows no sign of having time for the Babbbitish and self-centered faith mixture that prevails in our &quot;religious&quot; culture. 

I&#039;ve said enough because my aim here is to recommend this article, not polemic. Mr. McKibben has loved his neighbors, alll of us, by reminding us of the central role that Commandment played in the acts of Jesus. I am trying to so my small part by passing his thoughts along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>our "so-called" christian nation</p>
<p>Currently featured at harpers.org is a an aptly humble assessment of religion in The United States, by a scholar and genuine Christian named Bill McKibben, titled "The Christian Paradox". Were it within my control, this would be required reading for all high school students, everyone desiring to vote, anyone seeking a driver's license, or a marriage license, all new parents, pretty much everybody. It is a reflection that all who like to wear their "faith" on their sleeves, for purposes that bear no relation to the Gospels, ought to read daily. You know who you are and I fear for you, though less than I fear the spiritual ruin you cause by your ways.</p>
<p>Like McKibben, I was raised in a small town and attended Sunday School and church, 48 out of 52 Sundays, I'd guess. Since graduating from college 24 years ago, I have probably made it to under 48 worship services. That is about to change, for reasons I am unable to explain. I think I have found an Episcopal Parish that follows the admonitions of Jesus having to do with loving one's neighbors, and shows no sign of having time for the Babbbitish and self-centered faith mixture that prevails in our "religious" culture. </p>
<p>I've said enough because my aim here is to recommend this article, not polemic. Mr. McKibben has loved his neighbors, alll of us, by reminding us of the central role that Commandment played in the acts of Jesus. I am trying to so my small part by passing his thoughts along.</p>
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		<title>By: tgibbs</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57755</link>
		<dc:creator>tgibbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57755</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I was never big on reciting the pledge in school. Children do not as yet have the cognitive skills to fully grasp its meaning, and the mandatory reciting of a pledge of allegiance seems somewhat Soviet to me.&lt;/i&gt;

After decades, I find that I still retain the skill that I developed in elementary school of being able say the entire pledge in under 5 seconds on a single breath. Needless to say, not much thought went into that incantation.

The notion of asking children, who are much too young to make any kind of legal binding contract, to make a &quot;pledge&quot; is somewhat ridiculous, and tends to undermine the meaning of the pledge. I think that the pledge should be introduced (without the divisive &quot;under God&quot; amendment) at a later age, when young people are old enough to understand its meaning and significance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I was never big on reciting the pledge in school. Children do not as yet have the cognitive skills to fully grasp its meaning, and the mandatory reciting of a pledge of allegiance seems somewhat Soviet to me.</i></p>
<p>After decades, I find that I still retain the skill that I developed in elementary school of being able say the entire pledge in under 5 seconds on a single breath. Needless to say, not much thought went into that incantation.</p>
<p>The notion of asking children, who are much too young to make any kind of legal binding contract, to make a "pledge" is somewhat ridiculous, and tends to undermine the meaning of the pledge. I think that the pledge should be introduced (without the divisive "under God" amendment) at a later age, when young people are old enough to understand its meaning and significance.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57744</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57744</guid>
		<description>&gt;Russians and Italians and Irish are non-white? &gt;The hate is screwing up your brain.

Trust me, WASPs wouldn&#039;t have considered these groups &quot;white&quot; in the 19th and early 20th centuries!

&quot;Sarcasm&quot;...look it up...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Russians and Italians and Irish are non-white? &gt;The hate is screwing up your brain.</p>
<p>Trust me, WASPs wouldn't have considered these groups "white" in the 19th and early 20th centuries!</p>
<p>"Sarcasm"...look it up...</p>
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		<title>By: tgibbs</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57740</link>
		<dc:creator>tgibbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57740</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Someone should tell him that the real basis for legal precedent was the 10 Commandments.&lt;/i&gt;

This would be comic--like Chekhov on the old Star Trek series insisting that the Russians invented everything--if it were not so pathetic. Legal systems and legal precedent have a long, documented history predating the 10 Commandments. Do you seriously imagine that the Egyptian empire had no notion of laws before the Jewish Exodus?

Certainly, the fathers of our country were not so ignorant of history when they wrote the Constitution, which laid out our legal system without a single mention of God, much less the 10 Commandments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Someone should tell him that the real basis for legal precedent was the 10 Commandments.</i></p>
<p>This would be comic--like Chekhov on the old Star Trek series insisting that the Russians invented everything--if it were not so pathetic. Legal systems and legal precedent have a long, documented history predating the 10 Commandments. Do you seriously imagine that the Egyptian empire had no notion of laws before the Jewish Exodus?</p>
<p>Certainly, the fathers of our country were not so ignorant of history when they wrote the Constitution, which laid out our legal system without a single mention of God, much less the 10 Commandments.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Longren &#187; Pledge Ruled &#8220;Unconstitutional&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57739</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Longren &#187; Pledge Ruled &#8220;Unconstitutional&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57739</guid>
		<description>[...] That&#8217;s how I feel, there&#8217;s a lotta people that feel much more strongly than I do. Some others people covering: Danny Carlton, Part-Time Pundit, L.T. Smash, Conservative Thinking, Outside The Beltway, Mark in Mexico, JunkYardBlog, and The Political Teen. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] That&#8217;s how I feel, there&#8217;s a lotta people that feel much more strongly than I do. Some others people covering: Danny Carlton, Part-Time Pundit, L.T. Smash, Conservative Thinking, Outside The Beltway, Mark in Mexico, JunkYardBlog, and The Political Teen. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ICallMasICM</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57728</link>
		<dc:creator>ICallMasICM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57728</guid>
		<description>&#039;to ensure that all of those non-white, non-Protestant immigrants&#039;

Russians and Italians and Irish are non-white? The hate is screwing up your brain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>'to ensure that all of those non-white, non-Protestant immigrants'</p>
<p>Russians and Italians and Irish are non-white? The hate is screwing up your brain.</p>
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		<title>By: DL</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57709</link>
		<dc:creator>DL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57709</guid>
		<description>He had it right, but he was reading a copy of the new EU Constitution when he made his decision. Someone should tell him that the real basis for legal precedent was the 10 Commandments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He had it right, but he was reading a copy of the new EU Constitution when he made his decision. Someone should tell him that the real basis for legal precedent was the 10 Commandments.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny Carlton: codenamed  "Jack Lewis"</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57701</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny Carlton: codenamed  "Jack Lewis"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57701</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Activist judge rules pledge &quot;unconstitutional&quot;&lt;/strong&gt;

From the Boston Herald... The Pledge of Allegiance was shot down by a federal judge in California yesterday, potentially setting...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Activist judge rules pledge "unconstitutional"</strong></p>
<p>From the Boston Herald... The Pledge of Allegiance was shot down by a federal judge in California yesterday, potentially setting...</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57691</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The A.P. got the story right; the judge is an idiot.  While Arlen Specter muses about his &quot;super precedents,&quot; Judge Karlton just went to the opposite extreme and invented the &quot;stupor precedent.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The A.P. got the story right; the judge is an idiot.  While Arlen Specter muses about his "super precedents," Judge Karlton just went to the opposite extreme and invented the "stupor precedent."</p>
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		<title>By: Sirkowski</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57690</link>
		<dc:creator>Sirkowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>One nation, under the &lt;strong&gt;Flying Spaghetti Monsters.&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One nation, under the <strong>Flying Spaghetti Monsters.</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Captain Video</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57687</link>
		<dc:creator>Captain Video</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 05:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57687</guid>
		<description>In a genuinely free society all affirmations of religious belief must result exclusively from the free volition of the person making the expression. All imposed religious affirmations, even if they are affirmations that the person making them accepts, are inconsistent with the principles on which a free society is based. Clearly having children say a pledge of allegiance that affirms the existence of God as part of a classroom ritual in which all children in the class are expected to participate is abhorrent to a free society.

More generally, all imposed religion is bad religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a genuinely free society all affirmations of religious belief must result exclusively from the free volition of the person making the expression. All imposed religious affirmations, even if they are affirmations that the person making them accepts, are inconsistent with the principles on which a free society is based. Clearly having children say a pledge of allegiance that affirms the existence of God as part of a classroom ritual in which all children in the class are expected to participate is abhorrent to a free society.</p>
<p>More generally, all imposed religion is bad religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Beldar</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57685</link>
		<dc:creator>Beldar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57685</guid>
		<description>From the day of the Supreme Court&#039;s ruling in &lt;i&gt;Newdow&lt;/i&gt;, it&#039;s been crystal clear that (a) another case would be filed, if not through Newdow&#039;s doing then through someone else similarly obsessive; (b) the Ninth Circuit will in due course again hold the Pledge unconstitutional, and will do so regardless of what the district court has or hasn&#039;t done, and regardless of whether it and the district court say they are or aren&#039;t bound by the Ninth Circuit&#039;s prior decision in &lt;i&gt;Newdow&lt;/i&gt;; (c) the Supreme Court &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; grant cert and take the case from the Ninth Circuit again; and (d) this time around, Justice Scalia won&#039;t shoot his mouth off to some Knights of Columbus gathering and therefore won&#039;t have to recuse himself.  I respectfully submit that (d) is likely to be the most important difference, maybe outcome-determinative.  But that&#039;s still anywhere from a year to two years away, I suspect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the day of the Supreme Court's ruling in <i>Newdow</i>, it's been crystal clear that (a) another case would be filed, if not through Newdow's doing then through someone else similarly obsessive; (b) the Ninth Circuit will in due course again hold the Pledge unconstitutional, and will do so regardless of what the district court has or hasn't done, and regardless of whether it and the district court say they are or aren't bound by the Ninth Circuit's prior decision in <i>Newdow</i>; (c) the Supreme Court <i>will</i> grant cert and take the case from the Ninth Circuit again; and (d) this time around, Justice Scalia won't shoot his mouth off to some Knights of Columbus gathering and therefore won't have to recuse himself.  I respectfully submit that (d) is likely to be the most important difference, maybe outcome-determinative.  But that's still anywhere from a year to two years away, I suspect.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57669</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/12008#comment-57669</guid>
		<description>Actually, the original flag pledge said just &quot;I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic...&quot;  It didn&#039;t actually specify to WHICH flag the drones were pledging!

As immigration anxiety reached a crescendo in the 1920s, the pledge was amended to include &quot;flag of the United States of America&quot; to ensure that all of those non-white,  non-Protestant immigrants were actually and truly pledging allegiance to the ONE TRUE FLAG, and not secretly thinking of the flag of their homeland when reciting the pledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, the original flag pledge said just "I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic..."  It didn't actually specify to WHICH flag the drones were pledging!</p>
<p>As immigration anxiety reached a crescendo in the 1920s, the pledge was amended to include "flag of the United States of America" to ensure that all of those non-white,  non-Protestant immigrants were actually and truly pledging allegiance to the ONE TRUE FLAG, and not secretly thinking of the flag of their homeland when reciting the pledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/judge_school_pledge_is_unconstitutional_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-57666</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As a deep cynic, when will will the next inevitable attack against the pledge occur: what happens if your son or daughter is not a citizen and hold alleigence to another nation?  Is it fair to make children who are citizens of another country say the pledge?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a deep cynic, when will will the next inevitable attack against the pledge occur: what happens if your son or daughter is not a citizen and hold alleigence to another nation?  Is it fair to make children who are citizens of another country say the pledge?</p>
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