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	<title>Comments on: Kerry&#8217;s Combat &#8220;V&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
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		<title>By: Raven</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23625</link>
		<dc:creator>Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23625</guid>
		<description>The problem is, Bush wasn&#039;t part of the unit when it received that award. &#160; And, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/7379#comment-23339&quot;&gt;as pointed out by Walt Starr (click link above)&lt;/a&gt;, someone who joins the unit later doesn&#039;t get to wear the ribbon, not even &quot;temporarily&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is, Bush wasn't part of the unit when it received that award.   And, <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/7379#comment-23339">as pointed out by Walt Starr (click link above)</a>, someone who joins the unit later doesn't get to wear the ribbon, not even "temporarily".</p>
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		<title>By: T Murray</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23543</link>
		<dc:creator>T Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23543</guid>
		<description>For what its worth - some years back (1995) I was awarded an Outstanding Unit Award (while serving active duty in the USAF). It was awarded to everyone who served in the unit. As far as my commander was concerned, the award was a team effort that required commitment by all the personel. I believe it would be considered unlikely that there would be certain individuals left out within a unit for an award of that type. The circumstances would have to be very unusual - as a matter of fact, I cant think of a set of circumstances that would fit that scenario. At least not for a unit of the type that I was in.

As for as who is awarded it - yes you must have been part of the unit during the time that the unit was considered &quot;outstanding&quot;. As long as you were part of the unit during that time - you would eventually get the award, even if your assignment changed, and the award wasnt actually given until after you were reasigned to a new duty station. If I remember right, there were a few people who skated into it - they were assigned to the unit a month or so prio to the award, and didnt really contribute, yet were still awarded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what its worth - some years back (1995) I was awarded an Outstanding Unit Award (while serving active duty in the USAF). It was awarded to everyone who served in the unit. As far as my commander was concerned, the award was a team effort that required commitment by all the personel. I believe it would be considered unlikely that there would be certain individuals left out within a unit for an award of that type. The circumstances would have to be very unusual - as a matter of fact, I cant think of a set of circumstances that would fit that scenario. At least not for a unit of the type that I was in.</p>
<p>As for as who is awarded it - yes you must have been part of the unit during the time that the unit was considered "outstanding". As long as you were part of the unit during that time - you would eventually get the award, even if your assignment changed, and the award wasnt actually given until after you were reasigned to a new duty station. If I remember right, there were a few people who skated into it - they were assigned to the unit a month or so prio to the award, and didnt really contribute, yet were still awarded.</p>
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		<title>By: The Stakeholder</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23508</link>
		<dc:creator>The Stakeholder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23508</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;This Better Not be True&lt;/strong&gt;
Via 100 Monkeys, the Telegraph has a piece (reprinted from the Sydney Morning Herald a few days ago) claiming this: ...the Pentagon has ordered an official investigation into the awards of the Democratic senator&#039;s five Vietnam War decorations. ...The ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>This Better Not be True</strong><br />
Via 100 Monkeys, the Telegraph has a piece (reprinted from the Sydney Morning Herald a few days ago) claiming this: ...the Pentagon has ordered an official investigation into the awards of the Democratic senator's five Vietnam War decorations. ...The ...</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23360</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2004 19:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23360</guid>
		<description>inge,

First I&#039;ve heard of the court martial.  It sounds quite unlikely.  The man was honorably discharged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>inge,</p>
<p>First I've heard of the court martial.  It sounds quite unlikely.  The man was honorably discharged.</p>
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		<title>By: inge</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23355</link>
		<dc:creator>inge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23355</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s be clear, Kerry is NOT one to overlook his own errors. He knew all along that the V was there, there were 3 citations which is unusual within itself. As he jumped the &#039;chain of command&#039;, to get a Purple Heart for self inflicted scratch - the Silverstar appears to go with it. If he couldn&#039;t get the medal from his commander, he waited either until a new commander came, or jumped the chain. However, Kerry also was court martialed for &#039;DERELICTION OF DUTY&#039; , one of the reasons he refuses to sign Form 180. Kerry is a claculated, cold liar, who knew since 1967 what he was doing-preparing his road to the White House. Working for the Dept of The Army, I am familiar with the excessive paperwork.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let's be clear, Kerry is NOT one to overlook his own errors. He knew all along that the V was there, there were 3 citations which is unusual within itself. As he jumped the 'chain of command', to get a Purple Heart for self inflicted scratch - the Silverstar appears to go with it. If he couldn't get the medal from his commander, he waited either until a new commander came, or jumped the chain. However, Kerry also was court martialed for 'DERELICTION OF DUTY' , one of the reasons he refuses to sign Form 180. Kerry is a claculated, cold liar, who knew since 1967 what he was doing-preparing his road to the White House. Working for the Dept of The Army, I am familiar with the excessive paperwork.</p>
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		<title>By: Raven</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23340</link>
		<dc:creator>Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2004 05:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23340</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;bains&lt;/b&gt; writes,

&lt;i&gt;That it was listed by Kerryâs website is curious in that it shows that his campaign is either similarly unaware, or sought to hoodwink those unaware.&lt;/i&gt;

Er, no, Kerry&#039;s website simply lists it as a &quot;Silver Star&quot;.

It is only the PDF of the actual Navy record that adds &quot;with Combat V&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>bains</b> writes,</p>
<p><i>That it was listed by Kerryâs website is curious in that it shows that his campaign is either similarly unaware, or sought to hoodwink those unaware.</i></p>
<p>Er, no, Kerry's website simply lists it as a "Silver Star".</p>
<p>It is only the PDF of the actual Navy record that adds "with Combat V".</p>
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		<title>By: Raven</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23339</link>
		<dc:creator>Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2004 05:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23339</guid>
		<description>Walt Starr, whose &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&amp;forum=132&amp;topic_id=654437&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;post&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt; has the photograph of Bush wearing the medal, and of the records not showing the medal, took the trouble to check with the Air Force about who can wear a unit medal. Â  The above link includes that discussion. Â  Starr also quotes the regulation:

&quot;&lt;i&gt;AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2803; Chapter 4; Paragraph 4.2&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;&lt;i&gt;&#039;Individual Entitlement. All assigned or attached people who served with a unit &lt;b&gt;during a period for which a unit award was awarded&lt;/b&gt; are authorized the appropriate ribbon &lt;b&gt;if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit&lt;/b&gt;.&#039;&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;Merely being in the unit during the period covered by the award is not enough in the Air Force. According to the regulations, one must have contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit in order to qualify, which means an order is published listing all members of the unit qualified to wear the award.

&quot;Bush&#039;s name appears on no such order.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt Starr, whose <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&#038;forum=132&#038;topic_id=654437"><b>post</b></a> has the photograph of Bush wearing the medal, and of the records not showing the medal, took the trouble to check with the Air Force about who can wear a unit medal. Â  The above link includes that discussion. Â  Starr also quotes the regulation:</p>
<p>"<i>AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2803; Chapter 4; Paragraph 4.2</i></p>
<p>"<i>'Individual Entitlement. All assigned or attached people who served with a unit <b>during a period for which a unit award was awarded</b> are authorized the appropriate ribbon <b>if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit</b>.'</i></p>
<p>"Merely being in the unit during the period covered by the award is not enough in the Air Force. According to the regulations, one must have contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit in order to qualify, which means an order is published listing all members of the unit qualified to wear the award.</p>
<p>"Bush's name appears on no such order."</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen M. St. Onge</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23338</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M. St. Onge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2004 04:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23338</guid>
		<description>&#160; &#160; This &quot;V&quot; stuff is getting ridiculous.

&#160; &#160; Didn&#039;t it ever occur to any of you that Kerry may not have paid any particular attention to his form 214?&#160; That maybe he just stuck it in the drawer without noticing the &quot;V&quot; designation?&#160; Or that the people at his campaign just posted copies of whatever he gave them on his website without knowing the ins and outs of awards?

&#160; &#160; Yeah, yeah, he&#039;s supposed to correct any errors in his records.&#160; Well, people are supposed to do lots of things that they somehow never get around to doing.&#160; Kerry obviously never imagined his military service would be questioned at any point.&#160; If he had, he&#039;d have taken some steps to deal with the Swift Vet mess before it damaged him so much.&#160; So the odd-on bet is that he either didn&#039;t know or didn&#039;t take seriously the bogus &quot;V&quot;.

&#160; &#160; And here, I agree with him.&#160; There&#039;s lots of serious questions to ask about Kerry&#039;s Viet Nam service generally, and that Silver Star in particular -- e.g., why the three seperate citations?&#160; Let&#039;s concentrate on them, and leave the probable clerical error alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>    This "V" stuff is getting ridiculous.</p>
<p>    Didn't it ever occur to any of you that Kerry may not have paid any particular attention to his form 214?  That maybe he just stuck it in the drawer without noticing the "V" designation?  Or that the people at his campaign just posted copies of whatever he gave them on his website without knowing the ins and outs of awards?</p>
<p>    Yeah, yeah, he's supposed to correct any errors in his records.  Well, people are supposed to do lots of things that they somehow never get around to doing.  Kerry obviously never imagined his military service would be questioned at any point.  If he had, he'd have taken some steps to deal with the Swift Vet mess before it damaged him so much.  So the odd-on bet is that he either didn't know or didn't take seriously the bogus "V".</p>
<p>    And here, I agree with him.  There's lots of serious questions to ask about Kerry's Viet Nam service generally, and that Silver Star in particular -- e.g., why the three seperate citations?  Let's concentrate on them, and leave the probable clerical error alone.</p>
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		<title>By: BeldarBlog</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23336</link>
		<dc:creator>BeldarBlog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2004 02:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23336</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Navy Department review of Kerry&#039;s medals and alleged misconduct&lt;/strong&gt;
Several readers have emailed me recently to point out Thomas Lipscomb&#039;s articles for the Chicago Sun-Times (Aug. 27, Aug. 28, Sep. 3) and Prof. Henry Holzer </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Navy Department review of Kerry's medals and alleged misconduct</strong><br />
Several readers have emailed me recently to point out Thomas Lipscomb's articles for the Chicago Sun-Times (Aug. 27, Aug. 28, Sep. 3) and Prof. Henry Holzer</p>
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		<title>By: Beldar</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23335</link>
		<dc:creator>Beldar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2004 02:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23335</guid>
		<description>Dr. Joyner, thanks for the link and the ping.  I&#039;m actually quite skeptical, however, about the suggestion that the Navy Department is doing, or has done, anything substantive yet.  They haven&#039;t appointed an investigator.  The letter from the DoD-IG to Judicial Watch just said they were forwarding Judicial Watch&#039;s complaint on to the Navy Department â not much more meaningful than a &quot;received&quot; stamp would be.  The DoD-IG could not have done otherwise, because he has a statutory obligation to investigate, or forward for investigation, allegations of the sort Judicial Watch has made.  But I think it would be a mistake to treat this like a preliminary determination of &quot;probable cause&quot; that there&#039;s actually been some impropriety (something other than a clerical error) or any other implied comment on the merits.  

One of my commenters directed me to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wus05.xml&quot;&gt;London Telegraph story&lt;/a&gt; which quotes an unidentified Navy Department official as saying, &quot;There&#039;s a feeling that it&#039;s time to deal with this thoroughly, once and for all.&quot;  Although anyone who&#039;s looked at my blog can confirm that I&#039;m no fan of Sen. Kerry and that I&#039;ve been highly interested in, and generally supportive of, the SwiftVets&#039; claims, I&#039;m not ready to get excited yet about a British reporter quoting an unidentified Navy Department source about unidentified parties&#039; &quot;feelings.&quot;  But I&#039;m willing to be proved wrong!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Joyner, thanks for the link and the ping.  I'm actually quite skeptical, however, about the suggestion that the Navy Department is doing, or has done, anything substantive yet.  They haven't appointed an investigator.  The letter from the DoD-IG to Judicial Watch just said they were forwarding Judicial Watch's complaint on to the Navy Department â not much more meaningful than a "received" stamp would be.  The DoD-IG could not have done otherwise, because he has a statutory obligation to investigate, or forward for investigation, allegations of the sort Judicial Watch has made.  But I think it would be a mistake to treat this like a preliminary determination of "probable cause" that there's actually been some impropriety (something other than a clerical error) or any other implied comment on the merits.  </p>
<p>One of my commenters directed me to a <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wus05.xml">London Telegraph story</a> which quotes an unidentified Navy Department official as saying, "There's a feeling that it's time to deal with this thoroughly, once and for all."  Although anyone who's looked at my blog can confirm that I'm no fan of Sen. Kerry and that I've been highly interested in, and generally supportive of, the SwiftVets' claims, I'm not ready to get excited yet about a British reporter quoting an unidentified Navy Department source about unidentified parties' "feelings."  But I'm willing to be proved wrong!</p>
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		<title>By: Boyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23285</link>
		<dc:creator>Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23285</guid>
		<description>I would be surprised to learn that former Lieutenant(jg) Kerry would know that no V is awarded or necessary for the Silver Star. If he didn&#039;t know, there would be no reason to try and get his 214 corrected.

And Kevin, through my 20 years of service in the Navy (about 15 year of that either on Air Force bases or in joint service environments), I&#039;ve never heard of anyone wearing a unit award unless they were attached to the unit for some portion of the award period. In essence, the award says the unit was outstanding &lt;i&gt;back then,&lt;/i&gt; not today.

I&#039;ll allow for the possibility that the Army may do it that way (James can confirm that one way or the other), but I can state categorically that the Navy and Marine Corps don&#039;t do it the way you suggest, and I&#039;m highly confident that the same is true for the Air Force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be surprised to learn that former Lieutenant(jg) Kerry would know that no V is awarded or necessary for the Silver Star. If he didn't know, there would be no reason to try and get his 214 corrected.</p>
<p>And Kevin, through my 20 years of service in the Navy (about 15 year of that either on Air Force bases or in joint service environments), I've never heard of anyone wearing a unit award unless they were attached to the unit for some portion of the award period. In essence, the award says the unit was outstanding <i>back then,</i> not today.</p>
<p>I'll allow for the possibility that the Army may do it that way (James can confirm that one way or the other), but I can state categorically that the Navy and Marine Corps don't do it the way you suggest, and I'm highly confident that the same is true for the Air Force.</p>
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		<title>By: bains</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23270</link>
		<dc:creator>bains</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23270</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But, again, there would be no advantage to Kerry in having people think that he&#039;d received a &quot;V&quot; on his Silver Star.&lt;/i&gt;

For those who served, yes.  There are however many folks that dont have the foggest idea what a silver star is awarded for, and for these people the V-designation is all the more impressive.  

That it was listed by Kerry&#039;s website is curious in that it shows that his campaign is either similarly unaware, or sought to hoodwink those unaware.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But, again, there would be no advantage to Kerry in having people think that he'd received a "V" on his Silver Star.</i></p>
<p>For those who served, yes.  There are however many folks that dont have the foggest idea what a silver star is awarded for, and for these people the V-designation is all the more impressive.  </p>
<p>That it was listed by Kerry's website is curious in that it shows that his campaign is either similarly unaware, or sought to hoodwink those unaware.</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23265</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23265</guid>
		<description>James &amp; Carp: if he belonged to the unit to which it had been awarded at the time of the photograph, he was absolutely entitled to wear it -- and would have to stop wearing it when he was reassigned.

At least, that&#039;s the rule as I understood it, from when a similar question was raised only weeks ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James &#038; Carp: if he belonged to the unit to which it had been awarded at the time of the photograph, he was absolutely entitled to wear it -- and would have to stop wearing it when he was reassigned.</p>
<p>At least, that's the rule as I understood it, from when a similar question was raised only weeks ago.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23259</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23259</guid>
		<description>Paul:  Yep.  That&#039;s what I mean--the story should have died off quickly.

Carpeicthus:  I saw that one yesterday.  The award in question is a unit citation rather than a personal award.  There would be no value to Bush in wearing it--it&#039;s about heraldry rather than personal achievement--so I presume it&#039;s some sort of snafu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul:  Yep.  That's what I mean--the story should have died off quickly.</p>
<p>Carpeicthus:  I saw that one yesterday.  The award in question is a unit citation rather than a personal award.  There would be no value to Bush in wearing it--it's about heraldry rather than personal achievement--so I presume it's some sort of snafu.</p>
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		<title>By: carpeicthus</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/kerrys_combat_v/comment-page-1/#comment-23258</link>
		<dc:creator>carpeicthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=7379#comment-23258</guid>
		<description>Whew. Good thing he wasn&#039;t &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=276&quot;&gt;photographed wearing a medal he didn&#039;t earn&lt;/a&gt; or anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whew. Good thing he wasn't <a href="http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=276">photographed wearing a medal he didn't earn</a> or anything.</p>
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