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	<title>Comments on: Knock and Announce Not Subject to Exclusionary Rule</title>
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		<title>By: The Heretik &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Knock Knock</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86751</link>
		<dc:creator>The Heretik &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Knock Knock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] The good news is people who may be innocent will now know the joy of having their doors knocked down by men with guns drawn. An aggressive raid may be the new order of the day. Or the night. If this looks like a home invasion and a cop should get shot in the confusion before he can announce himself, that is the price will have to pay. If a citizen gets shot in the fright, it&#8217;s just the cost of a new day. Thanks, Scalia. Thanks a lot. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The good news is people who may be innocent will now know the joy of having their doors knocked down by men with guns drawn. An aggressive raid may be the new order of the day. Or the night. If this looks like a home invasion and a cop should get shot in the confusion before he can announce himself, that is the price will have to pay. If a citizen gets shot in the fright, it&#8217;s just the cost of a new day. Thanks, Scalia. Thanks a lot. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kent</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86736</link>
		<dc:creator>kent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 20:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-86736</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;England, does not have an exclusionary rule and, indeed, their judges consider punishing society for the actions of over-eager cops absurd.&lt;/em&gt;

I have to agree with the comments to the effect that the Exclusionary Rule is a pretty poor sanction for illegal searches. It is even harder to make a case for it being the &lt;em&gt;principal&lt;/em&gt;  sanction for illegal searches.  After all, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it punishes the cops &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; in those cases where criminal conduct was &lt;em&gt;actually taking place.&lt;/em&gt;  If the cops kick down the door of a family who are as pure as the driven snow, there&#039;s no evidence of wrongdoing to exclude, because there is no wrongdoing.  The sanction is empty.

That&#039;s not the kind of incentive structure which it would have occurred to me was good to confront the police with.  But then, I&#039;m no Supreme Court justice.  (Steve is doubtless sighing with relief at that last, and I don&#039;t really blame him.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>England, does not have an exclusionary rule and, indeed, their judges consider punishing society for the actions of over-eager cops absurd.</em></p>
<p>I have to agree with the comments to the effect that the Exclusionary Rule is a pretty poor sanction for illegal searches. It is even harder to make a case for it being the <em>principal</em>  sanction for illegal searches.  After all, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it punishes the cops <em>only</em> in those cases where criminal conduct was <em>actually taking place.</em>  If the cops kick down the door of a family who are as pure as the driven snow, there's no evidence of wrongdoing to exclude, because there is no wrongdoing.  The sanction is empty.</p>
<p>That's not the kind of incentive structure which it would have occurred to me was good to confront the police with.  But then, I'm no Supreme Court justice.  (Steve is doubtless sighing with relief at that last, and I don't really blame him.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86710</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-86710</guid>
		<description>Commenting at the Volokh Conspiracy, Medis has a really good point:  overreliance on the Exclusionary Rule goes hand-in-hand with our societal reluctance to curb police misconduct.

It&#039;s a long comment; &lt;a href=&quot;http://volokh.com/posts/1150389368.shtml#107858&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;check it out&lt;/a&gt; if you&#039;re interested in thinking about &lt;i&gt;Hudson&lt;/i&gt; and the Rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commenting at the Volokh Conspiracy, Medis has a really good point:  overreliance on the Exclusionary Rule goes hand-in-hand with our societal reluctance to curb police misconduct.</p>
<p>It's a long comment; <a href="http://volokh.com/posts/1150389368.shtml#107858" rel="nofollow">check it out</a> if you're interested in thinking about <i>Hudson</i> and the Rule.</p>
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		<title>By: yetanotherjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86706</link>
		<dc:creator>yetanotherjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-86706</guid>
		<description>Who would you most want to protect with the &quot;knock and announce&quot; rule? The innocent where they would want to help the police recognize that they are at a mistaken address. 

Imagine two scenarios in a duplex. In one, we have a man who has kidnapped a young girl, gagged her, literally nailed her to the floor and is repeatedly raping her. In the other, we have a guy who is working a couple of jobs, including a night shift, and is sleeping. The police, suspecting the horrors the girl is going through, cut corners in executing a valid search warrant (as this case had a valid search warrant). Now lets assume that they announce themselves, but failed to knock (as in this case). They burst into the correct side of the duplex, free the girl and arrest the rapist. Now the question is (and was before the court) what should the penalty be. They are searching with a valid search warrant, but they failed to knock. The left side of the court says the correct procedure would be to exclude the evidence from the search including evidence that stems from what is found there. So the evidence of the torture, rape, etc would all be excluded.

Now imagine that the error also included getting the wrong side of the duplex. The burst in, grab the guy just waking up, tear the place apart trying to find where he has hidden the girl. The discover they are at the wrong address, the rapist killed the girl and has left. Now how does the exclusionary rule help the innocent man who was handcuffed, kept on the floor with a knee in his back and had his place taken apart.

The exclusionary rule is premised that two wrongs can make a right. The first wrong is the polices when they fail to conduct themselves according to some standard (which may not have been something they could be trained to avoid, for example the lack of reading rights to the accused that gave us the Miranda warning). The second wrong is that suppression of truth will best serve the public interest. This rule is nearing its 100th birthday, but is a far cry from being original with the constitution. Fines, loss of job (temporary or permanently), jail time, etc are all potential ways to curb the police from illegal searches, without necessarily suppressing truth. Only the rich would be able to sue? Well only the guilty get a benefit now. Make it a criminal case. Disbar district attorneys who show themselves to be to reluctant to pursue criminality among the police. There are lots of ways to address this without suppressing the truth. And many of them also provide the potential for more directly helping the innocent.

All the court did was look at a supreme court decision and say that a different penalty than suppressing the truth may be appropriate in cases like this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who would you most want to protect with the "knock and announce" rule? The innocent where they would want to help the police recognize that they are at a mistaken address. </p>
<p>Imagine two scenarios in a duplex. In one, we have a man who has kidnapped a young girl, gagged her, literally nailed her to the floor and is repeatedly raping her. In the other, we have a guy who is working a couple of jobs, including a night shift, and is sleeping. The police, suspecting the horrors the girl is going through, cut corners in executing a valid search warrant (as this case had a valid search warrant). Now lets assume that they announce themselves, but failed to knock (as in this case). They burst into the correct side of the duplex, free the girl and arrest the rapist. Now the question is (and was before the court) what should the penalty be. They are searching with a valid search warrant, but they failed to knock. The left side of the court says the correct procedure would be to exclude the evidence from the search including evidence that stems from what is found there. So the evidence of the torture, rape, etc would all be excluded.</p>
<p>Now imagine that the error also included getting the wrong side of the duplex. The burst in, grab the guy just waking up, tear the place apart trying to find where he has hidden the girl. The discover they are at the wrong address, the rapist killed the girl and has left. Now how does the exclusionary rule help the innocent man who was handcuffed, kept on the floor with a knee in his back and had his place taken apart.</p>
<p>The exclusionary rule is premised that two wrongs can make a right. The first wrong is the polices when they fail to conduct themselves according to some standard (which may not have been something they could be trained to avoid, for example the lack of reading rights to the accused that gave us the Miranda warning). The second wrong is that suppression of truth will best serve the public interest. This rule is nearing its 100th birthday, but is a far cry from being original with the constitution. Fines, loss of job (temporary or permanently), jail time, etc are all potential ways to curb the police from illegal searches, without necessarily suppressing truth. Only the rich would be able to sue? Well only the guilty get a benefit now. Make it a criminal case. Disbar district attorneys who show themselves to be to reluctant to pursue criminality among the police. There are lots of ways to address this without suppressing the truth. And many of them also provide the potential for more directly helping the innocent.</p>
<p>All the court did was look at a supreme court decision and say that a different penalty than suppressing the truth may be appropriate in cases like this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86705</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;em&gt;frightened criminals or nervous cops&lt;/em&gt; 

Or innocent, pistol-packing civilians, who hear the door break in, grab their guns, &amp; shoot whoever first enters their bedroom.

If the Court&#039;s decision were a statute, I&#039;d call it the Civilian-&amp;-Cop-Killing Act of 2006.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>frightened criminals or nervous cops</em> </p>
<p>Or innocent, pistol-packing civilians, who hear the door break in, grab their guns, &amp; shoot whoever first enters their bedroom.</p>
<p>If the Court's decision were a statute, I'd call it the Civilian-&amp;-Cop-Killing Act of 2006.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86684</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-86684</guid>
		<description>Avedon:

Sure. But that doesn&#039;t necessarily mean we should let guilty drug dealers go.  The evidence is being seized pursuant to a legal warrant. The &quot;crime&quot; is kicking the door in to enforce the warrant rather than knocking and waiting a reasonable time for the dealers to answer it and let the cops in.  Presumably, they might destroy the evidence in the nonce but, since that too is illegal, I&#039;m not sure they have any claim there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Avedon:</p>
<p>Sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean we should let guilty drug dealers go.  The evidence is being seized pursuant to a legal warrant. The "crime" is kicking the door in to enforce the warrant rather than knocking and waiting a reasonable time for the dealers to answer it and let the cops in.  Presumably, they might destroy the evidence in the nonce but, since that too is illegal, I'm not sure they have any claim there.</p>
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		<title>By: Avedon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86683</link>
		<dc:creator>Avedon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-86683</guid>
		<description>If the cops are entering your home illegally, aren&#039;t they also criminals?  Why should they be able to get away with it if the rest of us can&#039;t?

It&#039;s not a question of whether a criminal will get away with a crime, it&#039;s a question of &lt;i&gt;which&lt;/i&gt; criminals are allowed to get away with their crimes.  Given that most of these cases involve drug crimes, I&#039;m thinking that cops who act illegally pose more of a danger to the public and that it&#039;s more important to hold &lt;i&gt;them&lt;/i&gt; obedient to the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the cops are entering your home illegally, aren't they also criminals?  Why should they be able to get away with it if the rest of us can't?</p>
<p>It's not a question of whether a criminal will get away with a crime, it's a question of <i>which</i> criminals are allowed to get away with their crimes.  Given that most of these cases involve drug crimes, I'm thinking that cops who act illegally pose more of a danger to the public and that it's more important to hold <i>them</i> obedient to the law.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86678</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 13:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-86678</guid>
		<description>As I understand it, the Exclusionary Rule is just about the only mechanism for enforcing any constraints on police searchs. Prosecutors are generally unwilling to prosecute the police.  Lawsuits are mostly for those with the money to hire lawyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, the Exclusionary Rule is just about the only mechanism for enforcing any constraints on police searchs. Prosecutors are generally unwilling to prosecute the police.  Lawsuits are mostly for those with the money to hire lawyers.</p>
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		<title>By: Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-86676</link>
		<dc:creator>Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-86676</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;High Court backs police no-knock searches 
   
...&lt;/strong&gt;

The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that police armed with a warrant can barge into homes and seize evi...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>High Court backs police no-knock searches </p>
<p>...</strong></p>
<p>The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that police armed with a warrant can barge into homes and seize evi...</p>
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		<title>By: lickx@digitalvisuals.comsurefire flashlights and glowsticks</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-130235</link>
		<dc:creator>lickx@digitalvisuals.comsurefire flashlights and glowsticks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-130235</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt; The insanity defense, which Esteban Carpio is using to fight the state’s charge that he murdered Providence police Detective Sgt. James Allen, is rarely invoked and rarely succeeds. Defense lawyers use it as “a defense of last resortKnock and Announce Not Subject to Exclusionary Rule Outside Beltway - The Supreme Court yesterday ruled that evidence gathered through illegal no knock searches did not necessarily need to be excluded from trial if the search was otherwise legal. NYT s Linda Greenhouse : Evidence found by police&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-pre%--> The insanity defense, which Esteban Carpio is using to fight the state&rsquo;s charge that he murdered Providence police Detective Sgt. James Allen, is rarely invoked and rarely succeeds. Defense lawyers use it as “a defense of last resortKnock and Announce Not Subject to Exclusionary Rule Outside Beltway - The Supreme Court yesterday ruled that evidence gathered through illegal no knock searches did not necessarily need to be excluded from trial if the search was otherwise legal. NYT s Linda Greenhouse : Evidence found by police<!--%kramer-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: The Sideshow</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-130236</link>
		<dc:creator>The Sideshow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-130236</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt; SCOTUSblog has a discussion of the decision to ignore the exclusionary rule. Interestingly, at leastsome right-wing blogs are making the case that if the only disincentive to violating your rights is removed, that effectively nullifies your rights. Kevin Drum says this decision highlights why it is difficult to take &quot;originalism&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-pre%--> SCOTUSblog has a discussion of the decision to ignore the exclusionary rule. Interestingly, at leastsome right-wing blogs are making the case that if the only disincentive to violating your rights is removed, that effectively nullifies your rights. Kevin Drum says this decision highlights why it is difficult to take "originalism<!--%kramer-post%--></p>
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		<title>By:  » Gone Hollywood</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/comment-page-1/#comment-130237</link>
		<dc:creator> » Gone Hollywood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/knock_and_announce_violations_not_subject_to_exclusionary_rule/#comment-130237</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt;to have the cops play by the rules puts all of us in more danger. First we had Kelo now Hudson. Pretty soon the only thing we’ll be “free from” are a couple of gay guys getting married. UPDATE: For a dissenting view, see James Joyner’s postKnock and Announce Not Subject to Exclusionary Rule [IMG] [IMG]&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-pre%-->to have the cops play by the rules puts all of us in more danger. First we had Kelo now Hudson. Pretty soon the only thing we&rsquo;ll be “free from” are a couple of gay guys getting married. UPDATE: For a dissenting view, see James Joyner&rsquo;s postKnock and Announce Not Subject to Exclusionary Rule [IMG] [IMG]<!--%kramer-post%--></p>
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