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	<title>Comments on: Libertarians Against Ron Paul</title>
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		<title>By: joelfarm</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-240940</link>
		<dc:creator>joelfarm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 04:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-240940</guid>
		<description>What is it with this insane attempt to label and then automatically allienate each other?!?!?
 The liberal hates the conservative, black hates white, gay trashes christian, etc, etc,.Meanwhile the power elite continues to rob our Nation&#039;s treasury and resources and sell our children&#039;s future in front of us!! We stab and scratch each other over the paltry crumbs they throw at us and they have the gaul to take our young for slaughter in foreign lands. We are being led to the cliff and our eyes are wide shut.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is it with this insane attempt to label and then automatically allienate each other?!?!?<br />
 The liberal hates the conservative, black hates white, gay trashes christian, etc, etc,.Meanwhile the power elite continues to rob our Nation's treasury and resources and sell our children's future in front of us!! We stab and scratch each other over the paltry crumbs they throw at us and they have the gaul to take our young for slaughter in foreign lands. We are being led to the cliff and our eyes are wide shut.</p>
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		<title>By: RumorsDaily &#187; Against?</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-240612</link>
		<dc:creator>RumorsDaily &#187; Against?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-240612</guid>
		<description>[...] against Ron Paul. Tags: 2008 Election, Libertarianism, Politics, Ron Paul 1 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] against Ron Paul. Tags: 2008 Election, Libertarianism, Politics, Ron Paul 1 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Fisk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-239377</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Fisk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-239377</guid>
		<description>By the way, since when is the Club for (cancerous) Growth, a libertarian bellweather?

This particular piece is just absurd. Free Trade agreements are by definition the antithesis of free trade and anyone who tries to paint NAFTA as a libertarian enterprise should be ashamed of themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, since when is the Club for (cancerous) Growth, a libertarian bellweather?</p>
<p>This particular piece is just absurd. Free Trade agreements are by definition the antithesis of free trade and anyone who tries to paint NAFTA as a libertarian enterprise should be ashamed of themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Fisk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-239312</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Fisk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-239312</guid>
		<description>&quot;Surely you realize that this statement is absurd. Why would you let Ron Paul solely define the philosophy?&quot;

I didn&#039;t say that Ron Paul defines libertarianism. It is quite clear however that libertarianism defines Ron Paul. 

If you can give me a good reason to object to a man who has for 40 years upheld those principles even when it was very unpopular and politically incorrect to do so, then I&#039;ll retract my statement.

Until then I stand by it 100%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Surely you realize that this statement is absurd. Why would you let Ron Paul solely define the philosophy?"</p>
<p>I didn't say that Ron Paul defines libertarianism. It is quite clear however that libertarianism defines Ron Paul. </p>
<p>If you can give me a good reason to object to a man who has for 40 years upheld those principles even when it was very unpopular and politically incorrect to do so, then I'll retract my statement.</p>
<p>Until then I stand by it 100%.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Bieser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-237910</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Bieser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-237910</guid>
		<description>Even if you &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; believe in the voting system, and vote, others will make the decision for you anyway.

Yes, it is too bad &quot;too much&quot; of you believe in it. Otherwise, we might be able to move on to something better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if you <em>do</em> believe in the voting system, and vote, others will make the decision for you anyway.</p>
<p>Yes, it is too bad "too much" of you believe in it. Otherwise, we might be able to move on to something better.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-237769</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-237769</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t believe in the voting system? Fine, don&#039;t cry when others make the decision for you. Too bad too much of us believe in it and there&#039;s no way to tell who doesn&#039;t! Good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don't believe in the voting system? Fine, don't cry when others make the decision for you. Too bad too much of us believe in it and there's no way to tell who doesn't! Good luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Brainpolice</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-237612</link>
		<dc:creator>Brainpolice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-237612</guid>
		<description>&quot;I agree with those that think anybody who is libertarian and still is reluctant to support Ron Paul can forget he future. Because you might as well say you just plain don&#039;t beleive in the voting system.&quot;

Well for some (although not all) of us market anarchists, that&#039;s part of the point. We don&#039;t believe in the voting system. We believe that voting implicitly reinforces the very institutional framework that allows statism to flourish. In other words, funds that could have been used on the market are diverted towards political ends. Using political power to reduce political power is oxymoronical. And we have a few centuries of history of the attempt to bring about liberty through the voting booth, and empirically speaking it simply hasn&#039;t worked. 

Libertarians tried this same thing with Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagen. In the case of Goldwater, he never stood a chance in hell of winning in the first place (and his foreign policy wasn&#039;t particularly libertarian). In the case of Reagen, the Gipper got into power and ended up expanding the state anyways. I have yet to see a good explaination as to how this Ron Paul phenomenon is particularly new in this respect. Reagen ran on many of the same things with respect to domestic policy and failed to achieve any of them. 

Even if Ron Paul did manage to get elected, does anyone seriously think that he would be able to wave his magic wand and transform the country into some minarchist utopia, let alone meaningfully slow down the growth of the state? In the face of opposition from both parties, as well as various vested interest groups? Since when has leviathan been whittled down meaningfully through the electoral process, and internally in general? I don&#039;t believe I&#039;m being overly pessemistic in being a realist. 

This has become a cult of personality to some extent. When the words &quot;Ron Paul&quot; are coming from one&#039;s mouth more then &quot;liberty&quot;, it is clear that something has gone terribly wrong. When anarchists are actively and enthusiastically involving themselves in the political process and tossing money at a politician, something strange is going on. When LewRockwell.com has been transformed into a Ron Paul cheerleading squad, I cannot help but pause in mystification. And when anyone who is critical of Ron Paul is assumed to be either a liberal or a neocon, I smell fallacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I agree with those that think anybody who is libertarian and still is reluctant to support Ron Paul can forget he future. Because you might as well say you just plain don't beleive in the voting system."</p>
<p>Well for some (although not all) of us market anarchists, that's part of the point. We don't believe in the voting system. We believe that voting implicitly reinforces the very institutional framework that allows statism to flourish. In other words, funds that could have been used on the market are diverted towards political ends. Using political power to reduce political power is oxymoronical. And we have a few centuries of history of the attempt to bring about liberty through the voting booth, and empirically speaking it simply hasn't worked. </p>
<p>Libertarians tried this same thing with Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagen. In the case of Goldwater, he never stood a chance in hell of winning in the first place (and his foreign policy wasn't particularly libertarian). In the case of Reagen, the Gipper got into power and ended up expanding the state anyways. I have yet to see a good explaination as to how this Ron Paul phenomenon is particularly new in this respect. Reagen ran on many of the same things with respect to domestic policy and failed to achieve any of them. </p>
<p>Even if Ron Paul did manage to get elected, does anyone seriously think that he would be able to wave his magic wand and transform the country into some minarchist utopia, let alone meaningfully slow down the growth of the state? In the face of opposition from both parties, as well as various vested interest groups? Since when has leviathan been whittled down meaningfully through the electoral process, and internally in general? I don't believe I'm being overly pessemistic in being a realist. </p>
<p>This has become a cult of personality to some extent. When the words "Ron Paul" are coming from one's mouth more then "liberty", it is clear that something has gone terribly wrong. When anarchists are actively and enthusiastically involving themselves in the political process and tossing money at a politician, something strange is going on. When LewRockwell.com has been transformed into a Ron Paul cheerleading squad, I cannot help but pause in mystification. And when anyone who is critical of Ron Paul is assumed to be either a liberal or a neocon, I smell fallacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-237423</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-237423</guid>
		<description>I agree with those that think anybody who is libertarian and still is reluctant to support Ron Paul can forget he future. Because you might as well say you just plain don&#039;t beleive in the voting system.

LP was founded on the premise that issues matter more than party. If they cannot see the obvious today, they can suck it everytime later somebody says &quot;a third party has no chance&quot;. If you vote based on party, the game is already over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with those that think anybody who is libertarian and still is reluctant to support Ron Paul can forget he future. Because you might as well say you just plain don't beleive in the voting system.</p>
<p>LP was founded on the premise that issues matter more than party. If they cannot see the obvious today, they can suck it everytime later somebody says "a third party has no chance". If you vote based on party, the game is already over.</p>
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		<title>By: K30</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-2/#comment-237397</link>
		<dc:creator>K30</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-237397</guid>
		<description>Brain Police,

Nobody stated that Ron Paul absolutely defines the libertarian philosophy. You conjured that up on you own. 

Ron Paul is the first libertarian leaning presidential candidate in decades to have even a slim chance at being elected. 

If one cannot trust Ron Paul to follow through with his stated positions, no one Washington can be trusted. 

If a Libertarian will not vote for Ron Paul because he is not &quot;Libertarian&quot; enough, then lets hope Thomas Jefferson is resurrected sometime in the near future, because the beacon of liberty once shining from America’s shores is nearly extinguished.   

Let me restate the quote you original referenced in a more realistic manner. 
      &quot;Anyone who claims they are against Ron Paul and are also &quot;libertarian&quot; are not VERY INTELLIGENT libertarians.&quot;

You should quit defending the positions of fools; it only encourages them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brain Police,</p>
<p>Nobody stated that Ron Paul absolutely defines the libertarian philosophy. You conjured that up on you own. </p>
<p>Ron Paul is the first libertarian leaning presidential candidate in decades to have even a slim chance at being elected. </p>
<p>If one cannot trust Ron Paul to follow through with his stated positions, no one Washington can be trusted. </p>
<p>If a Libertarian will not vote for Ron Paul because he is not "Libertarian" enough, then lets hope Thomas Jefferson is resurrected sometime in the near future, because the beacon of liberty once shining from America&rsquo;s shores is nearly extinguished.   </p>
<p>Let me restate the quote you original referenced in a more realistic manner.<br />
      "Anyone who claims they are against Ron Paul and are also "libertarian" are not VERY INTELLIGENT libertarians."</p>
<p>You should quit defending the positions of fools; it only encourages them.</p>
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		<title>By: Brainpolice</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-1/#comment-237179</link>
		<dc:creator>Brainpolice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-237179</guid>
		<description>&quot;Anyone who claims they are against Ron Paul and are also &quot;libertarian&quot; are not libertarians.&quot;

Surely you realize that this statement is absurd. Why would you let Ron Paul solely define the philosophy? Supporting Ron Paul is not a prerequiste to being a libertarian. Libertarianism is a philosophy and a broad political movement, not based on supporting particular politicians. I&#039;m not sure if the people here are aware of this, but a sizable portion of the libertarian movement consists of anarchists (particularly market anarchists). 

Wendy McElroy, Stefan Molyneux, Brad Spangler, etc., are not libertarians? They&#039;ve been libertarians for a long time, and they have been critical of Ron Paul and the political process. Part of their objection is not to Ron Paul himself so much as political participation (I.E. it hasn&#039;t worked and never will). But they also have pointed out some grave inconsistancies in Ron Paul&#039;s positions. 

Some of the statements in this article are off-base. But not all of them. And there&#039;s much that wasn&#039;t mentioned. Ron Paul&#039;s support for a federally funded border fence (which will involve some degree of eminent domain to boot), for example, can hardly be described as &quot;libertarian&quot;. And while in rhetoric he supports the state&#039;s rights position on abortion, he has actually introduced federal legislation defining life as beginning at conception; this is a far right manuever. 

Believe it or not, a sizable portion of life-long libertarians are concerned that Ron Paul&#039;s cultural conservatism trumps his libertarianism on key issues. And they are not convinced that putting people in positions of political power, no matter how libertarian they may seem, is a sensible solution to our problems. Nor do they believe that Ron Paul, even if he made it into office, could realistically do much to reduce political power. Nor do they entirely trust that he would not use it for political purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Anyone who claims they are against Ron Paul and are also "libertarian" are not libertarians."</p>
<p>Surely you realize that this statement is absurd. Why would you let Ron Paul solely define the philosophy? Supporting Ron Paul is not a prerequiste to being a libertarian. Libertarianism is a philosophy and a broad political movement, not based on supporting particular politicians. I'm not sure if the people here are aware of this, but a sizable portion of the libertarian movement consists of anarchists (particularly market anarchists). </p>
<p>Wendy McElroy, Stefan Molyneux, Brad Spangler, etc., are not libertarians? They've been libertarians for a long time, and they have been critical of Ron Paul and the political process. Part of their objection is not to Ron Paul himself so much as political participation (I.E. it hasn't worked and never will). But they also have pointed out some grave inconsistancies in Ron Paul's positions. </p>
<p>Some of the statements in this article are off-base. But not all of them. And there's much that wasn't mentioned. Ron Paul's support for a federally funded border fence (which will involve some degree of eminent domain to boot), for example, can hardly be described as "libertarian". And while in rhetoric he supports the state's rights position on abortion, he has actually introduced federal legislation defining life as beginning at conception; this is a far right manuever. </p>
<p>Believe it or not, a sizable portion of life-long libertarians are concerned that Ron Paul's cultural conservatism trumps his libertarianism on key issues. And they are not convinced that putting people in positions of political power, no matter how libertarian they may seem, is a sensible solution to our problems. Nor do they believe that Ron Paul, even if he made it into office, could realistically do much to reduce political power. Nor do they entirely trust that he would not use it for political purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: James Bowery</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-1/#comment-236566</link>
		<dc:creator>James Bowery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-236566</guid>
		<description>Do you or do you not support Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you or do you not support Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Fisk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-1/#comment-236433</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Fisk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-236433</guid>
		<description>Anyone who claims they are against Ron Paul and are also &quot;libertarian&quot; are not libertarians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who claims they are against Ron Paul and are also "libertarian" are not libertarians.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-1/#comment-236386</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-236386</guid>
		<description>No borders, Absolute &quot;free&quot; trade, absolute pro-abortion,etc.....At what point does tempered intelligent libertarianism degenerate into rampant stupid anarchy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No borders, Absolute "free" trade, absolute pro-abortion,etc.....At what point does tempered intelligent libertarianism degenerate into rampant stupid anarchy?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Stamper</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-1/#comment-236383</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Stamper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-236383</guid>
		<description>As a former LP state chairman and former presidential elector for Ron Paul, I must take issue with the assertion that libertarians (including former libertarians like myself) are somehow repudiating Ron Paul.  This is the first time I&#039;ve heard that Dr. Paul is opposed to unrestricted international free trade, unrestricted immigration, and vouchers for private (i.e. religious) schools.  If that is the way he feels, good for him!  Free (international) trade is has been thoroughly discredited.  It has resulted in the deindustrialization of the US.  Unrestricted immigration has made a mockery of our borders and has overloaded the already overstressed social safety net.  Vouchers are simply another faith-based-initiative handout to the Religious Right.  Just what we need in this country: more theocracy... I was a libertarian for more than 20 years.  I quit the party in disgust because we never elected anyone - just talked about it.  I joined the Republicans and was actually elected to local office.  I quit the Republicans when the bombs started falling on Baghdad.  I vowed to never again vote for any Republican.  However, it looks like I&#039;m going to have to recant and vote for Ron Paul in the primary.  I&#039;m astonished at his level of support.    He could be the next Ross Perot if he ran as an independent next November.  I hope he does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former LP state chairman and former presidential elector for Ron Paul, I must take issue with the assertion that libertarians (including former libertarians like myself) are somehow repudiating Ron Paul.  This is the first time I've heard that Dr. Paul is opposed to unrestricted international free trade, unrestricted immigration, and vouchers for private (i.e. religious) schools.  If that is the way he feels, good for him!  Free (international) trade is has been thoroughly discredited.  It has resulted in the deindustrialization of the US.  Unrestricted immigration has made a mockery of our borders and has overloaded the already overstressed social safety net.  Vouchers are simply another faith-based-initiative handout to the Religious Right.  Just what we need in this country: more theocracy... I was a libertarian for more than 20 years.  I quit the party in disgust because we never elected anyone - just talked about it.  I joined the Republicans and was actually elected to local office.  I quit the Republicans when the bombs started falling on Baghdad.  I vowed to never again vote for any Republican.  However, it looks like I'm going to have to recant and vote for Ron Paul in the primary.  I'm astonished at his level of support.    He could be the next Ross Perot if he ran as an independent next November.  I hope he does.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_against_ron_paul/comment-page-1/#comment-236339</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/libertarians_against_ron_paul/#comment-236339</guid>
		<description>I love it how these libertarians are saying Dr. Paul is bad for libertarianism....yet you&#039;ve done jack shit for the &quot;movement&quot;.  just being recognized on a national stage, Dr. Paul has done more for libertarianism than your pathetic egos.  After reading this blog....I really don&#039;t see myself changing my party affiliation back to Libertarian after this primary season.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love it how these libertarians are saying Dr. Paul is bad for libertarianism....yet you've done jack shit for the "movement".  just being recognized on a national stage, Dr. Paul has done more for libertarianism than your pathetic egos.  After reading this blog....I really don't see myself changing my party affiliation back to Libertarian after this primary season.</p>
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