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	<title>Comments on: Libertarians Burning their Carry-Cards</title>
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		<title>By: Classical Values</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-217056</link>
		<dc:creator>Classical Values</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-217056</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Why? Oh, just because!...&lt;/strong&gt;

Glenn Reynolds asks a good question about Andrew Sullivan&#039;s inability to disagree with Glenn without misrepresenting what he says:it&#039;s telling that he can&#039;t seem to criticize me without misrepresenting what I&#039;ve said. In this post he links to a tru...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Why? Oh, just because!...</strong></p>
<p>Glenn Reynolds asks a good question about Andrew Sullivan's inability to disagree with Glenn without misrepresenting what he says:it's telling that he can't seem to criticize me without misrepresenting what I've said. In this post he links to a tru...</p>
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		<title>By: Kent G. Budge</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207860</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent G. Budge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207860</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Selling Treasury bonds outside of declared war or national emergency is illegal.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m inclined to think it&#039;s bad policy, but where does the Constitution make it illegal? A search of the text of the Constitution and its amendments yields no mention of bonds. Debt is mentioned only in the context of how the government&#039;s debts are to be paid, and whether pre-Constitution and Confederate debts remain binding (yes to the first, no to the second).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Selling Treasury bonds outside of declared war or national emergency is illegal.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm inclined to think it's bad policy, but where does the Constitution make it illegal? A search of the text of the Constitution and its amendments yields no mention of bonds. Debt is mentioned only in the context of how the government's debts are to be paid, and whether pre-Constitution and Confederate debts remain binding (yes to the first, no to the second).</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207805</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207805</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;The question was: Is survival the highest aspiration?&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, but it is the first. All else is possible only because the individual -- some individual, even if not oneself -- survives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><em>The question was: Is survival the highest aspiration?</em></p></blockquote>
<p>No, but it is the first. All else is possible only because the individual -- some individual, even if not oneself -- survives.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Manifold</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207733</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Manifold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207733</guid>
		<description>Protagonist nailed it with &quot;the Libertarian Party is what you make it. If you become active, you may find that you&#039;re one of the few people in your community who are, and just by showing up you have moved the party a great deal towards your way of thinking.&quot;

If &lt;em&gt;one-tenth&lt;/em&gt; of Glenn Reynolds&#039; readership, which is presumably heavily &quot;neolibertarian,&quot; became involved in the LP, they would dominate it within one election cycle and would be running every state party.  Few local conventions have more than a handful of attendees, and very few state conventions have even a three-digit number of participants.

Give me 100 neolibertarians for two years and I&#039;ll hand them complete control of their state&#039;s LP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Protagonist nailed it with "the Libertarian Party is what you make it. If you become active, you may find that you're one of the few people in your community who are, and just by showing up you have moved the party a great deal towards your way of thinking."</p>
<p>If <em>one-tenth</em> of Glenn Reynolds' readership, which is presumably heavily "neolibertarian," became involved in the LP, they would dominate it within one election cycle and would be running every state party.  Few local conventions have more than a handful of attendees, and very few state conventions have even a three-digit number of participants.</p>
<p>Give me 100 neolibertarians for two years and I'll hand them complete control of their state's LP.</p>
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		<title>By: TomT</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207496</link>
		<dc:creator>TomT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207496</guid>
		<description>&quot; Evolution/Creationism: Evolution is a fact,...&quot;

Evolution is not fact, it is a theory. Too many inconsistencies for it to be fact.  

Belief in something without supporting facts is called religion and you should not shove it down my throat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>" Evolution/Creationism: Evolution is a fact,..."</p>
<p>Evolution is not fact, it is a theory. Too many inconsistencies for it to be fact.  </p>
<p>Belief in something without supporting facts is called religion and you should not shove it down my throat.</p>
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		<title>By: CatoRenasci</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207473</link>
		<dc:creator>CatoRenasci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207473</guid>
		<description>While I have always had strongly libertarian tendencies, since first encountering the Libertarian Party in the early 1970&#039;s, I have always viewed it through the perspective of Emerson&#039;s famous (and delightful) observation in &lt;em&gt;Self-Reliance&lt;/em&gt; that&lt;blockquote&gt;A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That is, in their unyielding devotion to some set of principles they designate as the essence of &quot;Libertarianism&quot; they take positions that are simply absurd in dealing with the real world.

To me, it&#039;s as if Libertarianism missed the whole systematic spirit of the 18th century enlightenment (despite their classical liberal economics) and are mired in the 17th century&#039;s spirit of system building and abolutes a la Descartes. (Apologies to Ernst Cassierer&#039;s &lt;em&gt;The Philosophy of the Enlightenment&lt;/em&gt; and his distinction between &lt;em&gt;l&#039;esprit systematique&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;l&#039;estprit de system&lt;/em&gt;)

It&#039;s &lt;em&gt;so&lt;/em&gt;, well, French!  It reminds one of the excesses of enthusiasm to which the Frogs are given, and their passion for &quot;logic&quot; that seems to always lead them down the garden path.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I have always had strongly libertarian tendencies, since first encountering the Libertarian Party in the early 1970's, I have always viewed it through the perspective of Emerson's famous (and delightful) observation in <em>Self-Reliance</em> that<br />
<blockquote>A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is, in their unyielding devotion to some set of principles they designate as the essence of "Libertarianism" they take positions that are simply absurd in dealing with the real world.</p>
<p>To me, it's as if Libertarianism missed the whole systematic spirit of the 18th century enlightenment (despite their classical liberal economics) and are mired in the 17th century's spirit of system building and abolutes a la Descartes. (Apologies to Ernst Cassierer's <em>The Philosophy of the Enlightenment</em> and his distinction between <em>l'esprit systematique</em> and <em>l'estprit de system</em>)</p>
<p>It's <em>so</em>, well, French!  It reminds one of the excesses of enthusiasm to which the Frogs are given, and their passion for "logic" that seems to always lead them down the garden path.</p>
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		<title>By: jayburd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207333</link>
		<dc:creator>jayburd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207333</guid>
		<description>The only &quot;card&quot; you need to carry is the Constitution. If you are willing to ignore or misinterpret any part of it, you are not Big L or little l. The Dept. of Education is illegal. Selling Treasury bonds outside of declared war or national emergency is illegal. Regime change is illegal. Group rights are illegal. There is not a lot of room to wax philosophical if you follow that little piece of paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only "card" you need to carry is the Constitution. If you are willing to ignore or misinterpret any part of it, you are not Big L or little l. The Dept. of Education is illegal. Selling Treasury bonds outside of declared war or national emergency is illegal. Regime change is illegal. Group rights are illegal. There is not a lot of room to wax philosophical if you follow that little piece of paper.</p>
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		<title>By: Pink Pig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207227</link>
		<dc:creator>Pink Pig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207227</guid>
		<description>OK, I guess I should bloviate a bit. I don&#039;t think that libertarianism has the answer to every question, but on the question of the relationship between citizen and government, I think the libertarian approach is best. As did George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, IIRC. For me, it is largely a question of priorities, and sometimes (like right now) I don&#039;t think that libertarian priorities rank very high. I think that when the country is attacked by troglodyte fascists, it has to respond, and that probably means putting other issues on the back burner for a while. Mainly, I became annoyed with the Libertarian Party because it placed the War on Drugs at the top of its agenda, and purported to make it a litmus test for libertarianism. Well, 1) there is no litmus test for libertarianism; 2) those of us of the libertarian persuasion can hardly afford to make enemies of those who agree with us on so many issues, and who almost certainly share the same long-term objectives. Frankly, this is not the time to debate the War on Drugs -- the country has far more serious enemies than the nannies who want to deprive drug users of their pleasures. There are many many people out there, a lot of whom claim to be &quot;loyal Americans&quot;, who want to destroy everything that has helped to make this a great country. When you see otherwise intelligent people, who think of themselves as liberals, taking the side of the jerks who want to return us to the dark ages, you should recognize that we really have some serious problems to deal with, and the question of whether Joe Blow gets his next fix just doesn&#039;t matter as much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I guess I should bloviate a bit. I don't think that libertarianism has the answer to every question, but on the question of the relationship between citizen and government, I think the libertarian approach is best. As did George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, IIRC. For me, it is largely a question of priorities, and sometimes (like right now) I don't think that libertarian priorities rank very high. I think that when the country is attacked by troglodyte fascists, it has to respond, and that probably means putting other issues on the back burner for a while. Mainly, I became annoyed with the Libertarian Party because it placed the War on Drugs at the top of its agenda, and purported to make it a litmus test for libertarianism. Well, 1) there is no litmus test for libertarianism; 2) those of us of the libertarian persuasion can hardly afford to make enemies of those who agree with us on so many issues, and who almost certainly share the same long-term objectives. Frankly, this is not the time to debate the War on Drugs -- the country has far more serious enemies than the nannies who want to deprive drug users of their pleasures. There are many many people out there, a lot of whom claim to be "loyal Americans", who want to destroy everything that has helped to make this a great country. When you see otherwise intelligent people, who think of themselves as liberals, taking the side of the jerks who want to return us to the dark ages, you should recognize that we really have some serious problems to deal with, and the question of whether Joe Blow gets his next fix just doesn't matter as much.</p>
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		<title>By: Kip Watson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207221</link>
		<dc:creator>Kip Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207221</guid>
		<description>You touched on the truth near the end of the piece, remarking on a parties and principles.

Principles are what&#039;s important. Innocent until proven guilty; equality under the law; freedom from capricious authority; right to due process; freedom of association; freedoms of speech and worship; right to life; these are &lt;em&gt;principles&lt;/em&gt;. 

Small government, the cult of the individual -- these are ideological tenets. They may or may not produce a desirable moral outcome, depending if the ideology they are derived from is sound.

The problem in politics -- on both Left and Right -- is those who put ideology above principle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You touched on the truth near the end of the piece, remarking on a parties and principles.</p>
<p>Principles are what's important. Innocent until proven guilty; equality under the law; freedom from capricious authority; right to due process; freedom of association; freedoms of speech and worship; right to life; these are <em>principles</em>. </p>
<p>Small government, the cult of the individual -- these are ideological tenets. They may or may not produce a desirable moral outcome, depending if the ideology they are derived from is sound.</p>
<p>The problem in politics -- on both Left and Right -- is those who put ideology above principle.</p>
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		<title>By: Pink Pig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207200</link>
		<dc:creator>Pink Pig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207200</guid>
		<description>Hmm, now I&#039;m not sure what I&#039;m supposed to do. When I posted the last message (if it actually hit the website at all) I got 5 PHP errors, so I have no idea whether the message got through or not. Maybe somebody on the site should check it out. I&#039;ll be glad to help, if you want to email me. In theory, you already have my address, but in case that&#039;s one of the things that got lost in the shuffle, I am bill@wmdaly.com.

I&#039;m also curious why I had to preview the message in order to post it. I&#039;ve never had to deal with such a protocol before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, now I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. When I posted the last message (if it actually hit the website at all) I got 5 PHP errors, so I have no idea whether the message got through or not. Maybe somebody on the site should check it out. I'll be glad to help, if you want to email me. In theory, you already have my address, but in case that's one of the things that got lost in the shuffle, I am <a href="mailto:bill@wmdaly.com">bill@wmdaly.com</a>.</p>
<p>I'm also curious why I had to preview the message in order to post it. I've never had to deal with such a protocol before.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Quick</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207189</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Quick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207189</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Really? Wait - let me check. Ah, yes... yes... as I thought. Turns out they mean exactly what I think they do. Thanks though for your concern.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Quite welcome.  Could you cite for me the source of your definitions?  Assuming you can move your head far enough aside to permit enough light for reading them....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Really? Wait - let me check. Ah, yes... yes... as I thought. Turns out they mean exactly what I think they do. Thanks though for your concern.</p></blockquote>
<p>Quite welcome.  Could you cite for me the source of your definitions?  Assuming you can move your head far enough aside to permit enough light for reading them....</p>
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		<title>By: Pink Pig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207188</link>
		<dc:creator>Pink Pig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207188</guid>
		<description>Why would anyone burn their Libertarian party card? I joined the Libertarian party back in the 90&#039;s, but when it became clear that they were every bit as ideological as the &quot;left&quot; and &quot;right&quot;, I simply didn&#039;t renew. What could I possibly prove by burning my membership card? I am not ashamed of having been a Libertarian, and I remain a libertarian, but even the differences engendered by the Islamofascist attack of 2001 do not convince me that I should deny ever having been a Libertarian. I expect that some day, we will for the most part be on the same wavelength again, so I see no point in burning bridges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would anyone burn their Libertarian party card? I joined the Libertarian party back in the 90's, but when it became clear that they were every bit as ideological as the "left" and "right", I simply didn't renew. What could I possibly prove by burning my membership card? I am not ashamed of having been a Libertarian, and I remain a libertarian, but even the differences engendered by the Islamofascist attack of 2001 do not convince me that I should deny ever having been a Libertarian. I expect that some day, we will for the most part be on the same wavelength again, so I see no point in burning bridges.</p>
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		<title>By: fishbane</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207158</link>
		<dc:creator>fishbane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207158</guid>
		<description>Gah. Every time I start thinking of myself as a libertarian, I read something like this.

I am on board with all of Steve Verdon&#039;s points. I&#039;m not a fan of guns, but if you want CCW, more power to you - I don&#039;t care; nutcases with guns aren&#039;t going to last long around non-nutcases with guns, so it sorts people out the same way alcohol abuse does.

The enthusiasm for blowing up foreign states, though, is something that I just can&#039;t get behind; especially the notion that if a friend of a friend told you that so-and-so was going to attack you, pre-emptive murder is justified. That strikes me as so antithetical to a (my) libertarian mindset that I start wondering if I should call myself one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gah. Every time I start thinking of myself as a libertarian, I read something like this.</p>
<p>I am on board with all of Steve Verdon's points. I'm not a fan of guns, but if you want CCW, more power to you - I don't care; nutcases with guns aren't going to last long around non-nutcases with guns, so it sorts people out the same way alcohol abuse does.</p>
<p>The enthusiasm for blowing up foreign states, though, is something that I just can't get behind; especially the notion that if a friend of a friend told you that so-and-so was going to attack you, pre-emptive murder is justified. That strikes me as so antithetical to a (my) libertarian mindset that I start wondering if I should call myself one.</p>
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		<title>By: Snowflakes in Hell &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Difficult Balance</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207090</link>
		<dc:creator>Snowflakes in Hell &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Difficult Balance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207090</guid>
		<description>[...] was reading this excellent bit linked to by Insty: Simon makes a strong point when he writes, “You want to have some ideology to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] was reading this excellent bit linked to by Insty: Simon makes a strong point when he writes, “You want to have some ideology to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/comment-page-1/#comment-207089</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/libertarians_burning_their_carry-cards/#comment-207089</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a &quot;card carrying&quot;, dues-paying, registered-to-vote, big-L Libertarian - but I don&#039;t much care for Ron Paul! I was more of a &quot;Harry Browne&quot; Libertarian.  

My primary voting issue is gun control; I&#039;m against it.  Gun control, as SF writer L. Neil Smith says, is a proxy for virtually every other Libertarian issue. 

Abortion?  Don&#039;t care; go ahead and fight among yourselves.  Surveillance?  Spy all you want, but don&#039;t try to use it in court.  Drugs?  Legalize everything. &quot;Think of it as Evolution in Action&quot;! After a year or so, the susceptible will have weeded themselves out of the gene pool, and those of us who remain won&#039;t be excessively tempted by drugs. Since I support CCW, I&#039;m not excessively worried about drug-crazed criminals. 

The Iraq/Iran war?  I guess I&#039;m not a very good Libertarian;  I say &quot;Nuke &#039;em till they glow, and shoot them in the dark!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm a "card carrying", dues-paying, registered-to-vote, big-L Libertarian - but I don't much care for Ron Paul! I was more of a "Harry Browne" Libertarian.  </p>
<p>My primary voting issue is gun control; I'm against it.  Gun control, as SF writer L. Neil Smith says, is a proxy for virtually every other Libertarian issue. </p>
<p>Abortion?  Don't care; go ahead and fight among yourselves.  Surveillance?  Spy all you want, but don't try to use it in court.  Drugs?  Legalize everything. "Think of it as Evolution in Action"! After a year or so, the susceptible will have weeded themselves out of the gene pool, and those of us who remain won't be excessively tempted by drugs. Since I support CCW, I'm not excessively worried about drug-crazed criminals. </p>
<p>The Iraq/Iran war?  I guess I'm not a very good Libertarian;  I say "Nuke 'em till they glow, and shoot them in the dark!"</p>
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