Nor, in the end, do the politrically calculated allusions to Lincoln by Obama.

Poor bitsy. A lifetime spent being jealous of the cool kids...

But if we use that standard, Lincoln is to blame for the water torture used systemically by people under his chain of command.

PD, your point is taken, mine was badly made. My point is this: Lincoln was days, weeks, months, away from news from the "front". Bush was minutes, hours, days away... and always seperated by no more than his people. Decisions made at the "highest" levels led to abuses at the "lowest" levels, for both. But who made efforts to make it right? Who had true oppurtunity to make it right?

A straight Lincoln/Bush comparison is not fair... to Lincoln. I would like to think that some things have improved.

The pivotal difference between the war is that one was within the country, and one was on the other side of the world. To think that decisions about individual freedom are independent of that is laughable.

I think that's true, but the other big difference is the draft. Probably the nadir of Lincoln on civil liberties was his defense of his general's arrest of ex-Congressman Vallandigham. As Lincoln asked, was he to shoot the young, ignorant deserter, while not harming a hair on the head of the wily agitator encouraging him to desert? OTOH, at what point does political opposition to the draft become an inducment to violate the draft laws? Bush didn't have these issues.

But Bush did detain a U.S. citizen as an enemy combatant outside of the domestic courts, which is probably the nadir of Bush's conduct. But that decision was upheld by the SCOTUS.

Even if one is inclined to give Bush the benefit of the doubt that "he didn't know what was going on" he still put certain people in a place to know.

But if we use that standard, Lincoln is to blame for the water torture used systemically by people under his chain of command. Also, numerous atrocities committed by Sherman's troops in Georgia are his fault because he should have known that moving across the country freed from supply lines was going to create a lot of friction with the civilian communities. Lincoln doesn't usually get blamed for these remote events, except for people who have pre-existing issues with Lincoln.

But the idea that Bush was uniquely bad or Lincoln uniquely good doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny.

Agreed James, history is never so clear to the astute observer.

Bush similarly shouldn't be blamed for Abu Ghraib.

PD: the link between Bush (or at least Rummy) and Abu Ghraib is very clear, as shown by Jane Mayer in "The Dark Side". Even if one is inclined to give Bush the benefit of the doubt that "he didn't know what was going on" he still put certain people in a place to know.

Thanx for the recommendation on the Neely book, it is on my list now.

The rules of war put together by Lincoln were largely framed around the notion that as between combatant and non-combatant, the burdens of war should fall on the combatant and as between the regular combatant and irregular combatant, the burdens of war should fall on the irregular. Bush generally gets beat up for his treatment of these irregular combatants that Lincoln's code would have simply seen shot.

I also don't believe that any mainstream evaluation of Lincoln would blame him for some atrocity committed by soldiers in the field outside his knowledge. Bush similarly shouldn't be blamed for Abu Ghraib.

Also Lincoln's suspension of habeas was within the mainstream of accepted legal positions prior to the war, many written in examining Andrew Jackson's suspension in New Orleans. Subsequent court decisions adopted a different interpretation. Again, the cases the Bush administration lost in the SCOTUS were based upon legitimate legal positions and he similarly should not be judged by the subsequent rulings.

We need to stop this nonsense about Bush brushing aside the Constitution. Establishing legal limits within the court system is not brushing it aside. We should also stop comparing Presidents whose terms are more than 130 years apart. That would include both Bush and Obama.