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	<title>Comments on: Loose Lips Sink Ships</title>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-88023</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-88023</guid>
		<description>If anyone&#039;s still reading this thread, &lt;a href=&quot;http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/06/administration-that-cried-wolf.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jack Balkin makes a nice point&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;blockquote&gt;And just the other day, &lt;strong&gt;government sources leaked-- to the New York Times!-- information from a classified briefing about plans to scale down U.S. forces in Iraq&lt;/strong&gt;. The Administration &lt;strong&gt;quickly confirmed the disclosure&lt;/strong&gt;, so quickly in fact, that there is little doubt that the Administration was happy that the news leaked out. After all, the leak sent signals to the American people that we would not be in Iraq forever, and that is a point particularly worth making as the 2006 elections near. &lt;strong&gt;Yet one would think that secret military plans for withdrawal of American troops are exactly the sort of information that our opponents in the Iraqi insurgency would like to know about&lt;/strong&gt;. And yet, unlike the disclosure of the secret banking surveillance program, the Administration did not suggest that *this* leak to the New York Times was &quot;disgraceful,&quot; to use President Bush&#039;s words. And unlike the financial records story, &lt;strong&gt;no Congressman, to my knowledge has demanded that the New York Times be prosecuted for it&lt;/strong&gt;. One can only conclude that is because &lt;strong&gt;the Administration figured that leak of possible troop withdrawals benefited the Administration&#039;s domestic political agenda&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;For this administration to wax apoplectic over leaks of classified info is just too comical to have any effect, outside the Fox/NRO/OTB-commenters crowd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone's still reading this thread, <a href="http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/06/administration-that-cried-wolf.html" rel="nofollow">Jack Balkin makes a nice point</a>:<br />
<blockquote>And just the other day, <strong>government sources leaked-- to the New York Times!-- information from a classified briefing about plans to scale down U.S. forces in Iraq</strong>. The Administration <strong>quickly confirmed the disclosure</strong>, so quickly in fact, that there is little doubt that the Administration was happy that the news leaked out. After all, the leak sent signals to the American people that we would not be in Iraq forever, and that is a point particularly worth making as the 2006 elections near. <strong>Yet one would think that secret military plans for withdrawal of American troops are exactly the sort of information that our opponents in the Iraqi insurgency would like to know about</strong>. And yet, unlike the disclosure of the secret banking surveillance program, the Administration did not suggest that *this* leak to the New York Times was "disgraceful," to use President Bush's words. And unlike the financial records story, <strong>no Congressman, to my knowledge has demanded that the New York Times be prosecuted for it</strong>. One can only conclude that is because <strong>the Administration figured that leak of possible troop withdrawals benefited the Administration's domestic political agenda</strong>.</p></blockquote>
<p>For this administration to wax apoplectic over leaks of classified info is just too comical to have any effect, outside the Fox/NRO/OTB-commenters crowd.</p>
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		<title>By: PoliBlog:  A Rough Draft of my Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87986</link>
		<dc:creator>PoliBlog:  A Rough Draft of my Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 01:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87986</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Joyner on the NYT Brouhaha...&lt;/strong&gt;

	Clearly there is a substantial consternation on this whole NYT/financial records story.  I have more to say about it, I suspect, but have neither the energy nor inclination at the moment.
	Still. I will say that agree with James Joyner&#8217;s assessm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Joyner on the NYT Brouhaha...</strong></p>
<p>	Clearly there is a substantial consternation on this whole NYT/financial records story.  I have more to say about it, I suspect, but have neither the energy nor inclination at the moment.<br />
	Still. I will say that agree with James Joyner&#8217;s assessm...</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87985</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 01:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87985</guid>
		<description>I just reread the NYT piece and it is unclear to me how it amounts to much more than a long-winded version of:  the administration is gathering financial data to try and catch terrorists.  I am not sure how this would be something especially &lt;i&gt;new&lt;/i&gt; to al Qaeda.

Part of what is new, it seems to me, is that scope of the data collection and the continued story of scant oversight.

At a minimum it is no surprise that the NYT thought it was news given the previous data-gathering stories.  Once a patterned is formed, the press is more willing to continue try and find new pieces to fit into it.

In other words, if there previous program did not exist (or, at least, were unknown) the NYT&#039;s editors may have been more prone to acquiesce to the administration&#039;s request.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just reread the NYT piece and it is unclear to me how it amounts to much more than a long-winded version of:  the administration is gathering financial data to try and catch terrorists.  I am not sure how this would be something especially <i>new</i> to al Qaeda.</p>
<p>Part of what is new, it seems to me, is that scope of the data collection and the continued story of scant oversight.</p>
<p>At a minimum it is no surprise that the NYT thought it was news given the previous data-gathering stories.  Once a patterned is formed, the press is more willing to continue try and find new pieces to fit into it.</p>
<p>In other words, if there previous program did not exist (or, at least, were unknown) the NYT's editors may have been more prone to acquiesce to the administration's request.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87971</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87971</guid>
		<description>Let me make my point another way.  The Times doesn&#039;t just publish every fact in its hands under the rubric of the public&#039;s right to know.  For example, the identity of their source on the story would be pretty darned interesting and they haven&#039;t published that.

So the NYT has a hierarchy of values.  What&#039;s the hierarchy?  Clearly, the public right to know is not the highest value nor is the secrecy of effective public programs that served the public good.  So what&#039;s the highest value?

Apparently, the Times&#039;s right to publish and it seems to me that&#039;s fairly shallow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me make my point another way.  The Times doesn't just publish every fact in its hands under the rubric of the public's right to know.  For example, the identity of their source on the story would be pretty darned interesting and they haven't published that.</p>
<p>So the NYT has a hierarchy of values.  What's the hierarchy?  Clearly, the public right to know is not the highest value nor is the secrecy of effective public programs that served the public good.  So what's the highest value?</p>
<p>Apparently, the Times's right to publish and it seems to me that's fairly shallow.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87967</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87967</guid>
		<description>I suppose.  In my view while the talk of treason is hyperventilating (the word has a meaning and this ain&#039;t it) the paper acted imprudently and excessively by publishing, which served no public interest other than to demonstrate that the NYT doesn&#039;t like Bush or his Administration. We already knew that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose.  In my view while the talk of treason is hyperventilating (the word has a meaning and this ain't it) the paper acted imprudently and excessively by publishing, which served no public interest other than to demonstrate that the NYT doesn't like Bush or his Administration. We already knew that.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87961</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87961</guid>
		<description>Dave: Keller clearly thinks the public is served by knowing about these programs. After all, they&#039;re incredibly controversial, with even many conservatives thinking they&#039;re a bad idea.  The administration would, of course, prefer that people not know.  Partly, that&#039;s out of legitimate national security concerns; partly, that&#039;s to avoid the controversy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: Keller clearly thinks the public is served by knowing about these programs. After all, they're incredibly controversial, with even many conservatives thinking they're a bad idea.  The administration would, of course, prefer that people not know.  Partly, that's out of legitimate national security concerns; partly, that's to avoid the controversy.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87960</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87960</guid>
		<description>James, I&#039;m a bit puzzled.  While I think that a lot of the criticism the NYT is receiving is over the top, it&#039;s unclear to me what the â��essential argumentâ�� you&#039;re inclined to agree with is.  It seems to me that the heart of the paragraph is that there&#039;s an &quot;official line&quot; and that the government wants the press to adhere to it.  Is there an example of that?  Is asking that secret and useful devices apparently within the law and apparently under Congressional scrutiny remain secret an &quot;official line&quot;?  Or is it common sense?

The position being advocated seems to me less James Madison and more William Vanderbilt:  &quot;The public be damned!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, I'm a bit puzzled.  While I think that a lot of the criticism the NYT is receiving is over the top, it's unclear to me what the â��essential argumentâ�� you're inclined to agree with is.  It seems to me that the heart of the paragraph is that there's an "official line" and that the government wants the press to adhere to it.  Is there an example of that?  Is asking that secret and useful devices apparently within the law and apparently under Congressional scrutiny remain secret an "official line"?  Or is it common sense?</p>
<p>The position being advocated seems to me less James Madison and more William Vanderbilt:  "The public be damned!"</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87942</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87942</guid>
		<description>(1) For some reason, the Wall Street Journal isn&#039;t getting pilloried like the NYT, despite their having run the same story on the same day, IIRC.  Can&#039;t imagine why not.

(2) &lt;i&gt;Can you imagine what would have happened if an American newpaper, and calling the political rag NY Times a newspaper is a stretch, published information about the Manhatten project before it was completed?&lt;/i&gt;

No, but I *can* imagine what would have happened if an American newspaper, and calling the then-political rag Chicago Tribune a newspaper is a stretch, published information about our secret breaking of the Japanese naval cipher, which actually WAS a secret--the Japanese had no idea we were reading their mail.

Pretty much nothing.  A grand jury was convened, but no indictment was issued or charges otherwise brought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(1) For some reason, the Wall Street Journal isn't getting pilloried like the NYT, despite their having run the same story on the same day, IIRC.  Can't imagine why not.</p>
<p>(2) <i>Can you imagine what would have happened if an American newpaper, and calling the political rag NY Times a newspaper is a stretch, published information about the Manhatten project before it was completed?</i></p>
<p>No, but I *can* imagine what would have happened if an American newspaper, and calling the then-political rag Chicago Tribune a newspaper is a stretch, published information about our secret breaking of the Japanese naval cipher, which actually WAS a secret--the Japanese had no idea we were reading their mail.</p>
<p>Pretty much nothing.  A grand jury was convened, but no indictment was issued or charges otherwise brought.</p>
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		<title>By: Elmo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87922</link>
		<dc:creator>Elmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87922</guid>
		<description>I admit it. I bought a NYT&#039;s once this year. And read it. I completely ignored all the bullsh*t masquerading as news and reporting. Not reading a single word thereof. I did find the sports, lifestyle, travel, arts ..... all very worthwhile. A cut above even. Well, more so. But afterwards, I felt dirty.

The NYT&#039;s can no longer separate their personal politics, from their reporting of same. Thusly they can no longer be considered a newspaper. Easier to just ignore (when possible). Personally doesn&#039;t do my spirit good to sift through the #%&amp;*@$ they print (like this morning&#039;s coverage of the Israeli hostage. Quite disgusting it was. As usual).

The future of anti-terror mil ops will be different. Evolving to something quite speedy and yet again even more secret. F*ck the NYT&#039;s. All the way up with a red hot poker. AND their liberal apologists. There is no politics in right and wrong. There is no right to slaughter innocents (still, I must be an idiot for not having bought large swaths of real estate in Private, Idaho. Where all the libs have settled. Before land  values skyrocketed).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit it. I bought a NYT's once this year. And read it. I completely ignored all the bullsh*t masquerading as news and reporting. Not reading a single word thereof. I did find the sports, lifestyle, travel, arts ..... all very worthwhile. A cut above even. Well, more so. But afterwards, I felt dirty.</p>
<p>The NYT's can no longer separate their personal politics, from their reporting of same. Thusly they can no longer be considered a newspaper. Easier to just ignore (when possible). Personally doesn't do my spirit good to sift through the #%&amp;*@$ they print (like this morning's coverage of the Israeli hostage. Quite disgusting it was. As usual).</p>
<p>The future of anti-terror mil ops will be different. Evolving to something quite speedy and yet again even more secret. F*ck the NYT's. All the way up with a red hot poker. AND their liberal apologists. There is no politics in right and wrong. There is no right to slaughter innocents (still, I must be an idiot for not having bought large swaths of real estate in Private, Idaho. Where all the libs have settled. Before land  values skyrocketed).</p>
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		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87916</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87916</guid>
		<description>And what, pray tell, is the NY Times rationale for keeping the identities of its informants, who have now demonstrably broken the law, secret?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And what, pray tell, is the NY Times rationale for keeping the identities of its informants, who have now demonstrably broken the law, secret?</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87911</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87911</guid>
		<description>Non-government organizations that work with governments often have confidentially clauses and can be held in violation of the law by leaking classified information. Just let a Boeing Engineer leak classified information on a military device and see what happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Non-government organizations that work with governments often have confidentially clauses and can be held in violation of the law by leaking classified information. Just let a Boeing Engineer leak classified information on a military device and see what happens.</p>
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		<title>By: erg</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87903</link>
		<dc:creator>erg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87903</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Unauthorized leaks of classified information is illegal and by definition a leak.
&lt;/i&gt;

Maybe we should start with the people who leak information to the Weakly Standard ? 

From what I understand, in this particular case, it may have been people at SWIFT who leaked the story (or at least confirmed it). Not being government employees, they have probably not broken any laws, although they could probably still be fired over it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Unauthorized leaks of classified information is illegal and by definition a leak.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Maybe we should start with the people who leak information to the Weakly Standard ? </p>
<p>From what I understand, in this particular case, it may have been people at SWIFT who leaked the story (or at least confirmed it). Not being government employees, they have probably not broken any laws, although they could probably still be fired over it.</p>
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		<title>By: erg</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87901</link>
		<dc:creator>erg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87901</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
Why is it that the â��truthâ�� to protect the public only gets published when people they donâ��t like are in office? This would have never seen the light of day during the Clinton administration.
&lt;/i&gt;

That is a plain lie. 

Anyone remember Wen Ho Lee ? The NYTimes published a dozen stories about this case. That hurt the CLinton administration badly and probably ended the VP ambitions of Bill Richardson. And to top it all, the Wen Ho Lee story turned out to be not true, and the case was dismissed. The NYTimes just paid money to Lee to settle a civil suit. 

Also, those of us who have somewhat longer memories remember the NYTimes publishing a dozen Judith Miller pieces before the war (and a few afterwards) about WMDs in IRaq, and some highly alarmist reporting. None of the stories turned out to be true. I suppose the NYTimes is only biased when it suits your purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
Why is it that the â��truthâ�� to protect the public only gets published when people they donâ��t like are in office? This would have never seen the light of day during the Clinton administration.<br />
</i></p>
<p>That is a plain lie. </p>
<p>Anyone remember Wen Ho Lee ? The NYTimes published a dozen stories about this case. That hurt the CLinton administration badly and probably ended the VP ambitions of Bill Richardson. And to top it all, the Wen Ho Lee story turned out to be not true, and the case was dismissed. The NYTimes just paid money to Lee to settle a civil suit. </p>
<p>Also, those of us who have somewhat longer memories remember the NYTimes publishing a dozen Judith Miller pieces before the war (and a few afterwards) about WMDs in IRaq, and some highly alarmist reporting. None of the stories turned out to be true. I suppose the NYTimes is only biased when it suits your purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87900</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87900</guid>
		<description>Classified information release by the proper authorities is not a leak. One can argue weather they should or should not release it but it isnâ??t a leak. Unauthorized leaks of classified information is illegal and by definition a leak. The program was known since soon after 911 but not as many details were known until the NYT story. I suspect the leak came from someone like Valerie Plame and not from someone from within the administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Classified information release by the proper authorities is not a leak. One can argue weather they should or should not release it but it isnâ??t a leak. Unauthorized leaks of classified information is illegal and by definition a leak. The program was known since soon after 911 but not as many details were known until the NYT story. I suspect the leak came from someone like Valerie Plame and not from someone from within the administration.</p>
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		<title>By: madmatt</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/comment-page-1/#comment-87894</link>
		<dc:creator>madmatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/06/loose_lips_sink_ships-2/#comment-87894</guid>
		<description>Gosh when it is a leak by the admin no problem...when it is a leak about the admin there is...maybe if they weren&#039;t such amoral hacks at the whitehouse they wouldn&#039;t leak so much!!!!  Plus seeing as this program has been known about since just after 9/11 I don&#039;t see what the problem is...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh when it is a leak by the admin no problem...when it is a leak about the admin there is...maybe if they weren't such amoral hacks at the whitehouse they wouldn't leak so much!!!!  Plus seeing as this program has been known about since just after 9/11 I don't see what the problem is...</p>
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